tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post2423574930405438667..comments2023-11-03T06:02:02.128-07:00Comments on By Ken Levine: Sexual Perversity in the Writers' RoomBy Ken Levinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17305293821975250420noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-54780601625001232752013-09-10T04:50:51.708-07:002013-09-10T04:50:51.708-07:00Kate: As I understand it, Jane Espenson only exper...Kate: As I understand it, Jane Espenson only experienced difficulties in SITCOM rooms, and found life much more enjoyable in drama rooms. <br /><br />And, as I tried to make a distinction before, I don't think the problem was salty humour. Johnny Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13302545167970532080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-69527583935331736402013-09-09T14:20:32.504-07:002013-09-09T14:20:32.504-07:00Haven't lots of businesses claimed that their ...Haven't lots of businesses claimed that their discrimination or harassment was integral to maintaining morale, keeping the business running, etc?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-56447256633989397412013-09-09T14:05:59.782-07:002013-09-09T14:05:59.782-07:00Based on the show, I assume that the writers of Fr...Based on the show, I assume that the writers of Friends were mostly women, especially after the first season or two. It certainly looks like the guys were written to fit the way women want men to behave.<br />Is it possible that the network sent down notes along these lines to a male writing staff?Mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-69568129931209438792013-09-09T14:03:13.050-07:002013-09-09T14:03:13.050-07:00>Had the writers’ assistant won this absurd law...>Had the writers’ assistant won this absurd lawsuit the result would not be more genteel writers rooms. It would be fewer woman writers and assistants being hired. And no one would benefit from that. <br /><br />The same can be said of any lawsuit filed by women employees. Sexual harassment, salary discrepancy, maternity leave, etc.McAlisternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-21491440239473125812013-09-09T11:37:23.499-07:002013-09-09T11:37:23.499-07:00I wish the Anonymous who talked about the ad agenc...I wish the Anonymous who talked about the ad agency dirty jokes would have given herself at least a pseudonym, so there wouldn't be any confusion whenI say that Anonymous is right on about the subtext. <br /><br />I have been extremely lucky to work in great rooms with huge amounts of trust and support. I acknowledge that not every room is like that, and it sounds like Jane Espenson learned that first hand. It's also telling that this happened early in her career; after my first few jobs, I had both the confidence and the creep radar to pass up gigs where I knew I wasn't a good fit, but if I'd started out in a bad place, I probably would have walked away from the industry forever. <br /><br />I do wonder why people think Tina Fey is so averse to crossing certain lines -- this is the woman who, when criticized anonymously on the internet as "not having a funny bone in her body," answered: "You know who does have a funny bone in her body? Your mom, every night of the week, for a dollar."<br /><br />And anyone who thinks that writers' room focus exclusively on the sexual proclivities of women should ask their friendly neighborhood TV writer why the Danny Thomas sandwich is #2 on the Canter's Deli menu. Katehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09313738786459612583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-46717284051384929292013-09-09T09:34:41.246-07:002013-09-09T09:34:41.246-07:00@Ken Levine: It's fine again now for me. Perha...@Ken Levine: It's fine again now for me. Perhaps some temporary changes from BlogSpot Central. Next time, I'll wait a couple of days to see if the changes settle.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06248182899977033579noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-2206127439167788782013-09-09T09:03:11.460-07:002013-09-09T09:03:11.460-07:00I don't know why there's a formatting prob...I don't know why there's a formatting problem with Blogger. It still looks fine in my Firefox and Safari browsers, and I'm not doing anything different in posting. Will investigate. Thanks for letting me know.By Ken Levinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17305293821975250420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-38459323982805203522013-09-09T07:35:46.056-07:002013-09-09T07:35:46.056-07:00It's always the subtext in the delivery not th...It's always the subtext in the delivery not the words. Writers know this. I'm a woman who's sat in creative brainstorming sessions (in the ad industry) often the only woman in the room. More than once I've had the experience where I've listened to one guy deliver a dirty joke and I laugh, not in the least bit offended. A couple of meetings later, a different guy tells the same exact joke and it made my skin crawl. Because that's the reaction he wanted. He wanted to make me uncomfortable. And any man who can come from a place of truth knows darn well this is what it's about. But subtext is very difficult to litigate in court. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-43612234332861328392013-09-09T07:26:45.972-07:002013-09-09T07:26:45.972-07:00And BTW, I am not siding with the USAF in that com...And BTW, I am not siding with the USAF in that completely different case. But how convenient for your argument that the scandal recently occurred just in time to use it as a comeback? <br /><br />My comment, again, has nothing to do with gender or anything sexual. It has to do with blind incompetence and how the corporate system often protects those who misuse. Dr Bobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-29599283802627298902013-09-09T07:20:09.452-07:002013-09-09T07:20:09.452-07:00Sure, when a point is made, fog it by bringing up ...Sure, when a point is made, fog it by bringing up something that happened years later to completely different people.<br /><br />The person in the writer's room was not physically threatened, but feel free to compare it to the Spanish Inquisition, the fall of Rome or Gilligan not getting off the island, if you think it will work.Dr Bobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-56847826641299166212013-09-09T06:54:59.520-07:002013-09-09T06:54:59.520-07:00Wait a minute! The woman who filed the suit agains...Wait a minute! The woman who filed the suit against the Friends staff joined the USAF? Isn't the division of the armed forces that has the most (and rightfully so) sexual harassment claims against it?Pete In NYnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-31508258336532523562013-09-09T05:50:23.480-07:002013-09-09T05:50:23.480-07:00Here at work we're only allowed to use Firefox...Here at work we're only allowed to use Firefox, and as mentioned above, the right hand panel sits on top of your text. I'm dyslexic enough without having to struggle with guessing at what letters may be in every sentence!<br />And Aaron Scheckley, you don't need to post a follow up comment to mine. I'm good.MIchael Stoffelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-71286597421216723402013-09-09T05:48:00.147-07:002013-09-09T05:48:00.147-07:00Yes, there are valid issues here about whether or ...Yes, there are valid issues here about whether or not "certain things" should be said in mixed company. Most comedy professionals know you should "know your audience," even if it includes the people in the room working with you.<br /><br />However, isn't the issue, at least in part, about what Ken said about the person who sued as being "filed by a disgruntled incompetent writers’ assistant who was fired for cause?"<br /><br />HR and wrongful termination lawsuits are proving (yes, proving) to be an effective means of revenge and punishment by vindictive men and women who cannot face the possibility that they might, at least a little, need some introspection. It's another way of avoiding accountability -- the hallmark of our age.<br /><br />If this person was a great talent in successive jobs it may vindicate her. That has not been my experience. Rather, they go on to other positions, further being lousy at them, and punish those who get in their way.<br /><br />Sorry, but that is from years of experience and it has nothing to do with gender. It's manipulation of the system which is terrified of being accused of being whatever is defined as offensive from one day to the next. <br /><br />It could be argued that the very content of many of today's sitcoms are offensive to both genders. But we can't sue them or report them to HR.Dr Bobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-88442644912801091822013-09-09T04:20:19.737-07:002013-09-09T04:20:19.737-07:00ODJennings, I was writing from my experience, whic...ODJennings, I was writing from my experience, which is all any of us can do. And just to give you a taste of my experience, funnily enough, my first job as a teen was in a NJ car dealership. My next gig was as a cocktail waitress on the floor of an Atlantic City casino. Eventually, I went to law school, and my first job as an attorney was in the Philadelphia DA's office, where I worked RICO cases, but had a desk with the detectives in the middle of the homicide unit. Since then, I've had positions that took my life from NYC to L.A. where I did business everywhere from maximum security prisons to Wall Street and Big Oil boardrooms. I've done time with Hollywood agents, in reality television production, and with Fox and Rupert Murdoch himself (I type this from the confines of my perpetual shower). All this is a long and tiresome way of saying you can spare me the life lessons about gallows humor and what happens in the real world. I'm good. Thanks.An (is my actual name)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07960251996565752991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-44010966901650065342013-09-09T02:40:23.349-07:002013-09-09T02:40:23.349-07:00Agreeing with @artships above: the formatting has ...Agreeing with @artships above: the formatting has gone awry overnight.<br />In the left column, the text has been displaced about 4 characters to the right and the lines lengthened by about 9 characters, clipping characters at the right.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06248182899977033579noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-90148199327483081682013-09-09T02:36:12.572-07:002013-09-09T02:36:12.572-07:00Ken,you make writing comedy akin to being an ER do...Ken,you make writing comedy akin to being an ER doctor or cop. I realize it is stressful and the hours are long, but many of us work long hours with hard jobs. That doesn't give us the right to talk about our co-workers private parts. It's just wrong. There is really no justifying it and I'm disappointed you tried. Somehow, I don't think in a Tina Fey's writer's room you would see this type of sexist behavior and the comedy is just as funny.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-75514250123645565542013-09-09T02:24:31.045-07:002013-09-09T02:24:31.045-07:00I can totally appreciate the need for a safe envir...I can totally appreciate the need for a safe environment where anything goes. Ideally you're in a room with people you respect and trust, and so you can all knowingly cross the line into vulgarity and offensiveness, while appreciating just how vulgar and offensive you're being -- and laughing at *that*. Much like the aforementioned "Atristocrats" joke. <br /><br />That's an inclusive, safe, environment. <br /><br />Unfortunately, like Wendy, I was there to witness the incredibly talented Jane Espenson talk about how she was the TARGET of such jokes in the sitcom writer room. Speculative discussions about what she was like in bed were considered acceptable, for example. <br /><br />She didn't enjoy it, and when she moved to drama rooms (initially Joss Whedon's feminist drama rooms) she found a place where she was happy. And she's not returned to sitcoms since. <br /><br />So, for me, it appears there's two things being discussed: A safe, inclusive environment where you can try and "out gross" each other to relieve the frustration, and a bullying, excluding environment where certain members of the room are targeted. <br /><br />I'm sure nobody is saying you need the latter to create good comedy. Johnny Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13302545167970532080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-10015320366999728102013-09-09T00:05:48.390-07:002013-09-09T00:05:48.390-07:00Ken,
I've been away for a couple of weeks and ... Ken,<br />I've been away for a couple of weeks and noticed...<br /><br />I love what you say. I love how you say it. I hate how it looks. That is, in Firefox, Opera, and Chrome, several characters at the end of every formatted line disappears into the right margin. To read your column I have to cut'n'paste your text into an editor and reformat it. <br /><br />You're worth it. I'll keep doing it.artshipsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-4207204905116732762013-09-08T22:38:31.969-07:002013-09-08T22:38:31.969-07:00Having been in three drama writers' rooms as a...Having been in three drama writers' rooms as a WA, and sat within earshot of a few more, I feel obliged to explain why good TV shows require "safe rooms." <br /><br />Because you're making something up that no one has ever seen before, and you need to make up a story that people believe, and yet cannot see coming. To achieve this, you cannot filter your ideas before they come out of your mouth. The "inappropriate" thing you don't let yourself say outloud could be the thing that inspires the person next to you to sit bolt upright and say,"WAIT! What if --" <br /><br />The first rule of brainstorming is "there are no bad ideas." Say it, put it on the board and move on. There will be time to edit/refine later, but not during the brainstorm. (In improv, this is the "yes and" rule.)<br /><br />Also, jokes tend to shake up a room, make everyone think of a situation from a new perspective and engage with a topic with new enthusiasm. For this reason, even seemingly very serious dramas will have the most ludicrous running jokes imaginable. <br /><br />For my part, I'm heartily sorry the Friends' WA was motivated to file the suit. I'm not in her shoes, and I don't know her reasons -- and to be utterly self-centered, it happened long enough ago that it hasn't impacted me professionally, but she did a disservice to all the smart, game assistants who understand how rooms work. (And as contractors, writers still don't have to watch the now-mandatory "Don't, like, skeeve people out" DVDs that HR insists I watch when I take a new job.)Katehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09313738786459612583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-25926441147380905952013-09-08T22:37:08.605-07:002013-09-08T22:37:08.605-07:00Ken,
I'm not advocating that all writer's...Ken,<br /><br />I'm not advocating that all writer's rooms are full of psychopaths. I also don't lump you in with my criticism. I think you're one of the good guys. I recognize writers ream on each other, and that's part of being around creative people under an unreal amount of pressure.<br />I'm talking more about power politics, and ways men can make the workplace very unpleasant for women, when they decide they don't want the woman there.<br />I also recognize that a woman with a political agenda (feminist) writing on a show can be a hell all it's own for the men. So in some cases, I could see myself telling a female writer, "don't be a sissy."<br />We can pull out particulars from abstracts all day.<br />Acknowledging your assertion that not all writer's rooms, or even many are that bad, let's just say SOME writer's rooms can get a little out of control, and sometimes the women there can pay the price, and it would be nice if that wasn't the case. Granted, some women are bad writers, and will use a feminist angle to justify their pain in the writer's room, but some women are good writers, and shouldn't get hosed simply because they match the template of some girl who dissed some neurotic writer ages ago.<br />You know, most every profession that has brought women in does better than it did before in one way or another. Owing to the numbers, sitcom writer's rooms appear to have a little work to do to improve.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-84866122896361154322013-09-08T22:13:14.610-07:002013-09-08T22:13:14.610-07:00Kyle,
Your view of the writers room as being a vi...Kyle,<br /><br />Your view of the writers room as being a vile den of women hating and the most inappropriate disgusting hurtful comedy material ever is just not accurate. That's understandable. You've never BEEN in a writers room. I think if do spend any time in one you'd say, "Oh. Okay. It's not that terrible." <br /><br />We make crude jokes but there are lines we don't cross -- not because of any sanctions or codes but because it's simple human decency. <br /><br />And for the most part we attack each other. We're comedy writers, not the Klan.<br /><br />Sheesh. By Ken Levinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17305293821975250420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-67969818079686824052013-09-08T21:58:54.083-07:002013-09-08T21:58:54.083-07:00Ken:
"The system works despite your scorn. Al...Ken:<br />"The system works despite your scorn. All the thoughtful, Emmy winning written sitcoms operate behind-the-scenes with this model. I know -- it's an unjust world."<br /><br />Not good logic. America "worked" when we had segregation. The many participants of that time were later called "the greatest generation." A few black people thought we could... be better.<br />I'm not advocating for a sterile writer's room. That is, as you say, anathema to great comedy. I'm suggesting that a general code of professionalism be recognized, maybe suggested by the guilds, so people might have a better idea of when they go too far, and reign their shit in a little.<br />Besides, when there's no "line" drawn, people in power tend to subjectively move whatever line they've established in their head in the favor of their pathology, until playing headfuck games is just "how things are done around here."<br />The consequence of having no line drawn is men who don't like women in the writer's room can make incredibly vile passive-aggressive "jokes" regularly to make the woman quit. If you don't admit that's happened, I think you're wrong.<br />btw, I really doubt there are jokes being made about an ungreased buttplug and Tina Fey's anus in Tina Fey's writing room. Something just tells me it doesn't happen much. Because she has the power, not some male sociopath show runner-and you know for a fact there are some show runners who might qualify as sociopaths.<br />They set the crazy tone of the room because they have the power.<br />That's all this is about, ultimately. Nothing to do with tradition or protocol.<br />One more thing, you'll likely never see a joke on network television calling out some vile situation related to Courtney Cox's vagina, so why defend the most vile jokes about it, and other things, when they'll never be used?<br />I would agree with you that a courtroom is about the worst place to figure out what's funny, but self-governace, headed by show runners who strive to not be psychopaths, or enable other psychopaths, would be a big step in the right direction.<br />Or maybe that's just the way you like it.<br /><br />-kyle<br /><br /><br /><br />"It's not that I can't help these people. It's just I don't want to."<br /><br />-Ken LevineAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-48437332690969714952013-09-08T21:38:17.038-07:002013-09-08T21:38:17.038-07:00From a previous post, here are three women writers...From a previous post, here are three women writers who worked for me. <br /><br />http://kenlevine.blogspot.com/2011/05/my-response-to-roseanne.html<br /><br />I invite any others to write in as well.By Ken Levinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17305293821975250420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-6016887487851861332013-09-08T21:31:04.458-07:002013-09-08T21:31:04.458-07:00Personally, I'd love to hear from a woman or g...Personally, I'd love to hear from a woman or gay male, one who has actually done time in a sitcom writers room, who would be willing to give an honest account of their experience. Frankly, that would tell me more than hearing from the old white guy.<br /><br />Problem would be finding one who would speak honestly, without having to worry about risking future employment. Jane Esponson's comment about why she gave up sitcom writing does raise a question to me.<br /><br />The system may work, but does that make the way it works right? It's easy to say that when you're not the minority group in the room, having to smile and be a good sport.Samnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-68550609271006310362013-09-08T21:05:55.859-07:002013-09-08T21:05:55.859-07:00Salesmen and waiters making jokes about their cust...Salesmen and waiters making jokes about their customers is hardly the same thing as a writers' room situation where women, who are generally in the minority in those groups, are forced to endure misogynistic, offensive"jokes" generated by the white males who tend to dominate.<br /><br />If those salesmen and waiters are making jokes about the ethnicity of their customers, is that okay, too?<br /><br />You seem to be saying that the fact that some people behave in a certain way makes it acceptable. As human beings, we should strive to overcome our worst instincts, not to embrace them.<br /><br />Count me among those who can't buy Ken's argument. It may reflect a reality, but hopefully, future generations of comedy writers will come to realize that forcing their female peers to be a good sport about enduring sexist, misogynistic "jokes" isn't one bit different than expecting a member of an ethnic group to good-naturedly accept offensive jokes aimed at his ethnicity.Carolnoreply@blogger.com