tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post3118800110863455525..comments2023-11-03T06:02:02.128-07:00Comments on By Ken Levine: The CHEERS I'm still writing in my head.By Ken Levinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17305293821975250420noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-60699024577616099182015-10-24T20:18:57.201-07:002015-10-24T20:18:57.201-07:00All I know for sure is people don't talk about...All I know for sure is people don't talk about a show 30 plus years later unless it's the best sitcom of all time. And to me CHEERS is. And I'm afraid this blog is becoming too gay. Where can I turn to? <br /><br />I do agree that the biggest problem is simple the guys who kissed Norm we didn't know like Sammy Davis Junior and Norm wasn't as bad as Archie... also it did end so fast after the reveal, you could barely sink it into your head if you weren't paying attention the first time. <br /><br />And maybe it's just not as funny as clever. It's still a great episode, but like most sitcoms, it's best in the middle of the run when you know the characters as writers and as an audience, just always funnier. <br /><br /><br />- Matt (Angry Bear is my nickname via my wife.)Angry Bearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11259639555544622233noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-39946567728109362432015-10-19T12:35:35.705-07:002015-10-19T12:35:35.705-07:00Ken you mentioned that the table read received a n...Ken you mentioned that the table read received a nice reaction but not a great one, wondering if you could tell us which episode did receive a great response from those assembled around the table.Stephen Markshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15382570443203706976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-62676541334794113572015-10-19T06:11:19.178-07:002015-10-19T06:11:19.178-07:00I rememeber that episode. I loved it. Canda may ha...I rememeber that episode. I loved it. Canda may have the best explanation. Maybe if Clif had been the most certain about who was gay (and mistaken) and they had kissed him?<br /><br />(Knowing Clif, he may well have been the most certain, but it's been a long time and I'm old.)Dana Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01350344882342624735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-4885828023470459162015-10-18T16:33:57.134-07:002015-10-18T16:33:57.134-07:00Could it be as simple as Norm was not a huge bigot...Could it be as simple as Norm was not a huge bigot, so it's not that big a deal. Now, when Archie gets kissed by Sammy Davis, that's HUGE....because Archie is a huge bigot. candanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-83893541581667578322015-10-18T09:10:55.734-07:002015-10-18T09:10:55.734-07:00Stephen, you're right that the idea is to show...Stephen, you're right that the idea is to show that their fears were absurd, but that doesn't make them any more likeable for being homophobic in the first place -- that's what I meant by "redemption". Not for the show, but for the characters.<br /><br />Speaking of identifying with Norm over Cliff: That's definitely a trend I didn't enjoy (and I don't think it really became a thing until seasons 6 or 7). They're both buffoons, and I much preferred it when Cliff and Norm were shown as an equally sad-sack double act. Yes, Cliff was far more annoying, but for Norm to look down on him is a bit silly; they're both pathetic (in the most likeable way).<br /><br />As the show went on, something else changed with Norm, too: There were moments where he genuinely seemed to not care about Vera anymore. The original joke that he was lost without her, but he could never let the bar know his true feelings, kind of went out the window later on, where the opportunity for a joke overtook his supposed hidden feelings.<br /><br />And speaking of that, in my head, the reason that Norm was in the bar, night after night, instead of at home with his beloved was this: Vera worked nights, and Norm couldn't handle being home alone.Johnny Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13302545167970532080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-50829476775568944852015-10-18T08:23:53.224-07:002015-10-18T08:23:53.224-07:00Some more thoughts:
1) I think Cliff would not ha...Some more thoughts:<br /><br />1) I think Cliff would not have worked as well as Norm in another version of this episode. The middle-aged virgin who lived with his mother was played for Norman Bates laughs at times and also would skew the story to being about Cliff's own concerns about his sexuality. It reminds me of a WKRP when Les Nesman is assumed to be gay. <br /><br />2) To @JohnnyWalker's point about the regulars coming across as bigoted, I think that was a bold move. And certainly true to the times (and sadly, even now in some parts of the country). I think the "redemption" is the reality that these men were happily interacting with two gay guys and never knew it (two men who were hardly going to turn the place into a "gay" bar).<br /><br />3) I think the "better than Vera" line is key -- even by this point of the series, we know that Norm is a wise cracker. If he's let speechless, something feels wrong (same with Carla), and I'd argue that's why the audience might have responded poorly before the line was added. They were *waiting* for something. I don't think this is a reflection of Wendt's talents, but just the expectations for the character. At a time when sadly, this type of physical affection might have resulted in violence (gay men were assaulted for even the perception of having hit on another man), Norm's reaction diffuses tension and lets us know that he's OK with it. We leave the episode still liking him.Stephen Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03670422634319094941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-5558039313530375152015-10-17T22:57:23.711-07:002015-10-17T22:57:23.711-07:00Seasons later, there was a moment where Cliff and ...Seasons later, there was a moment where Cliff and Norm were ogling a photo of Rebecca's rival for boyfriend Robin. Rebecca sniffs that the girl isn't THAT pretty. Cliff and Norm summon an acquaintance over; he looks at the photo and says "I'd switch" -- the joke being that even a (subtly implied) gay man found this girl hot. Big laugh, but also a sign that the boys had long since accepted gays in the bar. <br /><br />If memory serves, gay was used for farcical purposes rather than stereotype jokes. Norm pretending to be gay so he could charge more for interior decorating work; Rebecca being the only one who doesn't know her old high school love is gay; and Sam introducing a fake gay lover to escape out of a rash promise. DBensonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01144515471557731622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-28545553634555199612015-10-17T22:02:59.638-07:002015-10-17T22:02:59.638-07:00Agree with those above on how the show's chara...Agree with those above on how the show's characters became defined in the ensuing years, Norm's role here would have gone to Cliff -- by Season 3, the joke with Norm would have been he didn't care if Cheers turned into a gay bar, as long as they kept allowing him to run a tab (and if you got to Season 3, Cliffie explaining his theories on homosexuality to psychologist Frasier Crane also would have been an easy place to mine comedy).Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-12455048839837796472015-10-17T21:00:36.578-07:002015-10-17T21:00:36.578-07:00Ken,
Did you see this article on Deadline: http:...Ken,<br /><br />Did you see this article on Deadline: http://deadline.com/2015/10/paleyfest-new-york-fargo-season-2-panel-1201585850/<br /><br />Ted Danson had to pitch cheers to Cristin Milioti at a Paleyfest event as she had never heard of it before!<br /><br />JasonJason Robertshttp://www.imdb.com/name/nm0731211/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-76134371552963110282015-10-17T20:45:48.633-07:002015-10-17T20:45:48.633-07:00I like Angry Bear's angle about Cliff getting ...I like Angry Bear's angle about Cliff getting the kiss as a comeuppance. Maybe we all identified with Norm but we felt superior to Cliff so it's easier to laugh at him. Steve Mcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-80714079858914185082015-10-17T20:11:37.025-07:002015-10-17T20:11:37.025-07:00Hey....it's the off-topic kid again.....bringi...Hey....it's the off-topic kid again.....bringing you an recently-discovered interesting source of relatively cheap cd's of radio broadcasts from the past.....I'm hoping some of the names mean something to you.....good luck!<br /><br />http://stores.ebay.com/Rockit-Radio?_trksid=p2047675.l2563DrBOPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07179469265158025584noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-57797489923352927122015-10-17T18:28:06.174-07:002015-10-17T18:28:06.174-07:00Re-watching Cheers again recently, the ending of t...Re-watching Cheers again recently, the ending of that episode did fall a little flat for me (sorry Ken!). The Cheers regulars reveal themselves to be a tad bigoted (which isn't great for their likability) so it felt like they needed to redeem themselves in some way. At tall order for 25 mins, I know. Instead of redemption, however, Norm gets kissed. The "better than Vera" line gives us some redemption (he doesn't mind he was kissed after all) but it's not a big laugh (for logic reasons, I think -- Vera doesn't give great kisses on the cheek?). <br /><br />As Anonymous points out, I think the crew watching George (not Norm) get kissed would have been hugely funny to them. <br /><br />The rest of the episode is great and surprisingly progressive! I was kind of shocked watching it again. It handled homophobia in a way that's not really dated -- which is far more than you can say for most shows 20+ years old. <br /><br />I wish the same could be said for Sam's womanising (anyone remember when he finally gives up on trying to sleep with Rebecca? I'm on season 7 and it's a bit grim at times). <br /><br />Now I need to go and rewrite that blasted scene from the SITCOM ROOM one more time. Good luck to all those there. (I hope it's not 6am when you're reading this -- and if it is, I hope it's not because you're still trying to figure out what happens in the scene!)<br /><br />Johnny Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13302545167970532080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-64249654231140924812015-10-17T18:13:30.520-07:002015-10-17T18:13:30.520-07:00Maybe, just maybe, the crew was laughing at "...Maybe, just maybe, the crew was laughing at "George" getting kissed since they knew him. And weren't laughing at Norm being kissed...fredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13409641680161401624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-18194926452933751462015-10-17T17:24:28.627-07:002015-10-17T17:24:28.627-07:00It didn't need a big laugh. Norm's line is...It didn't need a big laugh. Norm's line is perfect. Exactly the tone and humor that befits the episode.<br /><br />However, whenever go-to big laughs are needed in the future, I recommend any sideline photo of Lions Head Coach Jim Caldwell when he's in his fugue state. I'm not blaming him for feeling that way.Charles H. Bryannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-87281349063814953552015-10-17T17:12:29.207-07:002015-10-17T17:12:29.207-07:00Wilson,
Where the prejudice comes in is not the f...Wilson,<br /><br />Where the prejudice comes in is not the fact that the regulars wouldn't want the tone of their bar to change. It comes from making the assumption that just because Sam would accept a gay friend that he'd automatically want to turn his business into a gay bar. This episode was made at a time when "homophobia" was often expressed as fear in a literal sense, as though being gay was some kind of social disease. Fear that a gay person in power would make their whole institution somehow gay. Fear that a child exposed to a gay teacher or gay pop idol would make that child "turn" gay.Andy Rosenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-87299374259859494892015-10-17T16:12:30.462-07:002015-10-17T16:12:30.462-07:00One of my favorite all-time Cheers episodes and I&...One of my favorite all-time Cheers episodes and I'm with D. McEwan. Organically, it was the right move and it did so much to establish the good parts of Sam's character. Mind you, it's very much of its time. Today, Sam in Boston would have far less hesitation about "supporting" his roommate. Breadbakernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-5123955269335829042015-10-17T14:53:30.012-07:002015-10-17T14:53:30.012-07:00I was watching that episode the night it first air...I was watching that episode the night it first aired,with a couple other gay men. "Better than Vera," not only got a big laugh in my living room, but cheers and applause.D. McEwannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-17511936692872954932015-10-17T12:49:06.623-07:002015-10-17T12:49:06.623-07:00If it hasn't been said already, I would guess ...If it hasn't been said already, I would guess the difference between reactions is that so early in the show's tenure the crew knew Norm/George much better than the audience, so the surprise of seeing Norm kissed generated a bigger response from those who knew him well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-49259399792131650822015-10-17T11:27:13.947-07:002015-10-17T11:27:13.947-07:00I felt the final joke was a bit rushed and there s...I felt the final joke was a bit rushed and there should've been more. Also, there's nothing wrong with the regulars fearing Cheers would turn into a gay bar. Gay bars have a different ambience than a sports bar. Would the regulars have been "bigots" if they were to ever fear Cheers turning into a biker bar?Wilsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-22117903139592104062015-10-17T11:13:29.869-07:002015-10-17T11:13:29.869-07:00I think Kent is absolutely right. This was one of...I think Kent is absolutely right. This was one of my all time favorite episodes, in fact, a few months ago I used it as an example of the elegant way CHEERS dealt with the gay issue compared to the awkward manner in which other shows were dealing with it at the time. IMHO, it was perfect, and I don't think it even needed the line that was added. I'm a big fan of George Wendt, but neither he (nor anyone else actually) had Shelley Long's ability to say so much with just a facial expression, and that's all he would have needed to get a big laugh there, I think. I wonder what his facial expression was when he did it for the crew. <br /><br />I still say, however, that it didn't need a big laugh there.Diane D.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-9441419898381762452015-10-17T11:00:56.075-07:002015-10-17T11:00:56.075-07:00To be honest, I think that the biggest issue is e...To be honest, I think that the biggest issue is expectations. That moment is the climactic one of an episode where you feel proud of yourself for making a statement about a social issue about which you have strong feelings.<br /><br />But ultimately, while the setup may have said something about prejudices and stereotypes, is the reveal that they'd made a mistake about identity all that funny or unique? If the mistake about identity had sprung from another reason, would you have had the same expectation for a big laugh? <br /><br />Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that the episode was unworthy or unfunny, or that the final moment wasn't funny. I just agree with the poster above that it wasn't necessarily a big guffaw moment, and even back then there may have been a little bit of an "after-school special moral moment" vibe about it. The crew's reaction may have differed because they were also invested in the production of it, and even if some technical crew may be more conservative than creative staff, their worldview even then was probably more progressive than the world at large. Tomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-88011085056306344962015-10-17T09:47:02.311-07:002015-10-17T09:47:02.311-07:00There's nothing wrong with it. It's just t...There's nothing wrong with it. It's just the kind of funny where you cringe, smile and nod your head instead of laughing. kenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09216705763011665828noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-61736385797320358212015-10-17T09:42:37.891-07:002015-10-17T09:42:37.891-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.kenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09216705763011665828noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-15541058906806596732015-10-17T09:03:22.751-07:002015-10-17T09:03:22.751-07:00I just recently saw this episode on Esquire TV. I...I just recently saw this episode on Esquire TV. I love the episode, but as I watched it I just wondered would a current TV show be allowed to make this episode.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11777496001166356949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-2950266445722595292015-10-17T08:56:20.074-07:002015-10-17T08:56:20.074-07:00"This won't be the kind of bar I throw pe..."This won't be the kind of bar I throw people out of..." <br /><br />Ken, this was a defining episode of CHEERS for me and that line (roughly paraphrased) not just sums up everything *great* about Sam Malone (despite his many amusing flaws) but what we all loved about the bar where "everybody knows your name." I've always admired Ted Danson and hearing that he supported the script from the start (in 1982, mind you) increases that respect.<br /><br />There's a lot of criticism about "message" shows, and I think in the Age of Irony, any sort of true emotion is avoided. This isn't hitting you over the head. It's presenting a true dilemma and saying something about friendship and compassion. <br /><br />You and David have written brilliantly funny scripts, but this was both funny *and* as you say "tries for something." As a writer, it has long been an inspiration.Stephen Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03670422634319094941noreply@blogger.com