tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post3977855585940979828..comments2023-11-03T06:02:02.128-07:00Comments on By Ken Levine: UnRealBy Ken Levinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17305293821975250420noreply@blogger.comBlogger70125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-83191550074615828712016-08-31T17:34:12.492-07:002016-08-31T17:34:12.492-07:00Also, to make it clear and fair to Noxon, she had ...Also, to make it clear and fair to Noxon, she had been the Golden Child on BUFFY, quickly moving put he ranks from Season 2 onwards. A lot of the best stuff in BUFFY heavily involved her, and Whedon leapt to her defence over Season 6... which seemed well planned, if poorly executed. (I just don't get what happened in Season 7 though, they added dullness to depression, and despite the resolute ending to 6, finally giving us Buffy back at the very end of the hell we'd endured, they seemed to refuse to let Buffy regain her heroic personality out of (presumably) a misguided attempt at making her troubles in Season 6 "matter". I can understand the theory, but she became defined by them, instead of learning from them and growing, which essentially made her a victim. I digress.)Johnny Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13302545167970532080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-26383231940383377302016-08-31T17:05:32.925-07:002016-08-31T17:05:32.925-07:00To be fair to Noxon, she was elevated to show runn...To be fair to Noxon, she was elevated to show runner after only a few years of writing on the show. She really was in the deep end. And Whedon, while supporting her, was happy to have left the story at the end of Season 5. It was only because UPN picked it up that we got Seasons 6 and 7 at all. So she had the unenviable job of trying to continue something the original creator was happy to have left alone. <br /><br />Just one note on SER's response: Some of the things he brings up (like Buffy's mom and sudden sister) came from Season 5. The sudden sister was a very odd choice, and I still am not really a huge fan of that character (she never really did anything by herself), but the twist with her mother remains the best episode of TV I've ever seen. It's a shame that you really have to watch the previous seasons for it to have the impact it achieves, otherwise I'd just recommend people to watch it now. It remains potent and incredible and honest and adult -- and as now been publicly shared, was loosely based on Whedon's life. <br /><br />But the rest of the stuff. Very true :(Johnny Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13302545167970532080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-12894864115935137912016-08-31T05:06:05.400-07:002016-08-31T05:06:05.400-07:00Briefly to Rinaldo, who said, "Maybe my favor...Briefly to Rinaldo, who said, "Maybe my favorite TV comedy of all time is Fawlty Towers, and I don't think Cleese & company loved Basil Fawlty."<br /><br />Actually, according to Cleese, yes they did. He mentions in an interview that no matter how bad a situation he got into, especially ones of his own doing, Connie Booth (his then-wife/co-writer/Polly) still ached for him, even though they both knew he was written as a "monster".<br /><br />As for UnREAL, I have only watched the trailers, but from the trailers, this reminds me of a cross between "Network" and "The Truman Show". Good writing trumps everything, but having watched a lot of TV and movies, I get disillusioned when I watch something that reminds me of something else. I have to like or be intrigued by the main character, hero or anti-hero and I am not getting that from what I saw. Faye Dunaway's character in "Network" was intriguing and malevolently obsessive, Ed Harris in the "Truman Show" was oddly charismatic, even though he was almost solely chasing after ratings. I'd have to see if they have written this showrunner with anything other than a devil-may-care, winner-takes-all attitude.<br /><br />Many folks have bad work experiences, but venting it in a TV show/movie may or may not work out as well as you plan. Jonah Hill's "Allen Gregory" struck me as a long "I'll get you" to folks he knew and "UnREAL" strikes me as the same thing.Brian Phillipshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06485075283223444305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-58853136905695699252016-08-30T13:31:52.544-07:002016-08-30T13:31:52.544-07:00The most unreal aspect of UnREAL is that its Everl...The most unreal aspect of UnREAL is that its Everlasting is broadcast week to week. I assume that real reality shows like The Bachelor, Survivor, etc. are not screened till the whole thing is over, allowing the producers to edit it so as to create story lines that lead to the known end-result. Jay Livingstonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03797268351984440375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-46308584231996689192016-08-30T09:57:21.002-07:002016-08-30T09:57:21.002-07:00I didn't read all the comments, but I scrolled...I didn't read all the comments, but I scrolled through the first few and I think my POV might be underrepresented. I watched the entire first season of Unreal and considered myself a pretty enthusiastic fan - but after a few episodes of Season 2 I walked away and have not looked back.<br /><br />I am told by reviewers that the main relationship to be invested in is that of the two female leads, Quinn and Rachel. In the first episode of the second season, they got matching tattoos, just two girls out to make their mark in the television world. However, they have no problem going behind each other's backs at the slightest provocation. Rachel is pretty much of a mess. Quinn has the street smarts. They have sabotaged each other repeatedly to leapfrog ahead in the imaginary climb to the top (the one that exists in their own heads and maybe not anywhere else).<br /><br />This series started out mean-spirited and got more so (and went crazy to boot). I don't think anyone truly cares about anyone else, not for the long term anyway. And I don't care about any of the characters enough to keep watching. At first I found Rachel appealing - but she shoots herself in the foot every chance she gets. Quinn fancies herself the dragon lady and never gets too far away from that persona.<br /><br />There are some writers and sociologists out there who feel this is an important program - hence the Peabody Award, I guess. The folks in charge are fearless, it's true - they will stop at nothing to shock the viewer. But I keep asking, "What's the point?" And so I stopped watching.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-91446420731266831922016-08-30T09:32:26.850-07:002016-08-30T09:32:26.850-07:00For me, unReal is a Breaking Bad or a Sopranos typ...For me, unReal is a Breaking Bad or a Sopranos type show mixed with a reality show mixed with a night-time soap opera like Scandal.<br /><br />The viewer knows that Rachel has been through something bad in her past and that she wants to be a good person, but she also want to be a strong person and to never let anyone walk all over her. Rachel has a surrogate mother figure with Quinn and their twisted relationship is more interesting to me than any relationship that Tony Soprano ever had with anyone.<br /><br />That being said, the show is melodramatic and unrealistic in many ways. But it fills the void in the summer (when so few new dramas are on) and I cannot wait to see each episode every week.<br /><br />I don't think the audience is really men, anyway. (It is in Lifetime after all.) I think it is a female empowerment fantasy gone wrong. It makes a woman want to be like Quinn when they come up against confrontation, yet scared that they would remain as bitter and alone as Quinn.<br /><br />Women spend a lot of time thinking about how their behavior is perceived in the world and we love to watch other women be bitchy on TV (Cookie on Empire anyone?). We get a lot of the pleasure of mouthing off without any real consequences. But I also derived this pleasure from watching Hugh Laurie be a smart jerk on House. He would have been fired a million times over at any U.S. hospital, but he remained at Princeton Plainsboro General to be brilliant and verbally cutting for several seasons.<br /><br />UnREAL is not a world I would ever want to live in, but visiting it for an hour a week is so fun. (Season two did go downhill, though.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-18395346418729232072016-08-30T02:11:53.235-07:002016-08-30T02:11:53.235-07:00The shift out of high school to college is one tha...The shift out of high school to college is one that many, many teen dramas have struggled with. And yet it's odd that it should be. High school has the cauldron of people unlike you who know a lot about you that you can't escape...but college is the place where people reinvent themselves after all that in what they hope will be a more congenial environment. Self-reinvention is such a deeply American theme you'd think college would be a promising setting for that. <br /><br />But to do that, the teen drama would have to have the courage to sideline its existing stars. I always thought GOSSIP GIRL would have worked a lot better if the show had stayed in high school with the younger characters instead of trying to go to college with the older ones. Like BUFFY, the show eventually found it simpler just to drop all the college stuff. The only teen drama I can think of that took that approach was FRIDAY NIGHT LIGHTS - and for them, it worked.<br /><br />I would hate to try to guess exactly how much Noxon changed BUFFY from what it might have been if Whedon had been more actively present. But I'll note this: I really didn't like GIRLFRIEND'S GUIDE TO DIVORCE.<br /><br />wg<br /><br />wgWendy M. Grossmanhttp://www.pelicancrossing.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-46580543513976271242016-08-29T23:28:32.991-07:002016-08-29T23:28:32.991-07:00Just wanted to thank Stephen and Johnny for the in...Just wanted to thank Stephen and Johnny for the interesting discussion on Buffy. I never watched the show, but still appreciate both of your insights on the show as it progressed. Very relevant to this and any discussion about TV series being "about" something interesting.<br />As for Unreal, I watched two acts and turned it off. I don't like to cringe for its own sake. It seemed to be a show very much "about" how awful reality shows are behind the scenes. Noted. It's like watching a show about gruesome skateboarding injuries... but I'm aware of the unpleasantness, and don't need to watch it on a loop. Still, some people can't get enough broken legs or cringeworthy stories.JJnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-57220710427622555242016-08-29T17:28:35.629-07:002016-08-29T17:28:35.629-07:00Again, imagine FRIENDS is Rachel and Monica have t...Again, imagine FRIENDS is Rachel and Monica have to take care of a needy, emotionally disturbed 15 year old. <br /><br /><br />Wasn't that Ross?CRLnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-60507464193378423752016-08-29T17:09:19.099-07:002016-08-29T17:09:19.099-07:00To answer your specific questions:
Is it mean-spir...To answer your specific questions:<br />Is it mean-spirited but that's the fun of it? Yes (for those who like it)<br />Is that considered "edgy"? Yes (and if it's not edgy, it is boring and shows a lack of sophistication)<br />Is there humanity, but I'm just missing it? No (humanity is not a requirement)<br />Is that just the current style? Yes (more's the pity)<br />Are moral characters uninteresting now? Yes (see comment #3 above)<br />Are we now just desensitized to human suffering? No, not in general. (and that is the strangest thing of all)<br />Is it a generational thing? Or a sensibility thing? Mostly generational, but sad nonetheless.<br /><br />They feel sorry for people who don't get it, and I feel so sorry for them if they don't get the kind of comedy you write, comedy that makes you laugh uproarously, makes you smile and shake your head in understanding, melts you with its charm, makes you care about the characters so much you'll be arguing about how it ended 40 years later---comedy that sometimes makes you cry.<br /><br />Diane D.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-34840471671201789312016-08-29T16:40:52.006-07:002016-08-29T16:40:52.006-07:00Totally agree with the Anonymous person who wrote ...Totally agree with the Anonymous person who wrote about Mr. Robot. I just started watching, and just stopped watching after 3 episodes. (I was really done with it after the second, but I decided to be generous and give it one more chance.) Beyond the characters not being very empathetic unless you're a borderline psychopath, the show blatantly lifts notes from other, very well-known films. The basic storyline -- paranoid socially dysfunctional guy meets crazy guy who recruits him into an underground scheme to wipe out the world's debt and has awkward relationship with emo woman -- is straight from "Fight Club." (Which made the supposedly Shocking Twist I've read about even more predictable.) The intense, well-dressed businessman who turns out to be violent and crazy looks like an "American Psycho" redux. In case you're confused about anything, the main character narrates to the audience AND talks to a therapist. (We really need two forms of exposition?) And on top of it all, they throw in a contrivance where the main character knows whatever he needs to know about other characters because he can hack just about anything and read their email and bank accounts.<br /><br />The show is visually impressive and cleverly directed, but that wasn't enough to keep me watching.Andy Rosenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-1047520612015378202016-08-29T16:13:46.926-07:002016-08-29T16:13:46.926-07:00JOHNNY WALKER: That said, and while I'm also a...JOHNNY WALKER: That said, and while I'm also a fan of Noxon, but I can say this: The two years she ran BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER (seasons 6 and 7), after Joss Whedon placed his attentions elsewhere, were *incredibly* depressing. I know Whedon fully supported Noxon's direction, but Whedon's Buffy was a classic, but relatable, Hero. She went through crap, but she was strong in a way that we, as the audience, admired and wanted to emulate. She was steadfast and loyal and witty and, yes, human.<br /><br />SER: I agree. The final two seasons of BUFFY suffered from what I call "concept collapse." Noxon apparently wanted to explore the complexities of adulthood but 1) even my 20s weren't that depressing. "FRIENDS with vampires" would have been a better hook than "REQUIEM FOR A DREAM with some laughs here and there" & 2) ANGEL was airing at the same time and was, I believe, doing a better job exploring the theme.<br /><br />Buffy leaving high school was a mistake but hard to avoid given that the cast is mortal and thus aging in real time. So, what *is* the series about if Buffy's an actual grown up? They then wrote out her mother (imagine FRASIER suddenly losing Martin) and Giles left (of course, he was no longer the librarian and they even had very meta episodes about "what the hell am I still doing around here with these kids?"). They tried to shift to college but that also fell apart because college is *never* as interesting as high school (TV shows keep thinking it is and trying to make this transition from 90210 and beyond). Oh, and then they gave Buffy a sullen teenager to look after. Huh? Again, imagine FRIENDS is Rachel and Monica have to take care of a needy, emotionally disturbed 15 year old. Yeah, the jokes just write themselves!<br /><br />CHEERS is a show that deftly avoided "concept collapse." And it would have been easy to do so. It managed to shift successfully from a romantic comedy (Sam and Diane) to a comedic ensemble. I don't think the writers and cast get nearly enough credit for achieving this. It also replaced two major stars while understanding what was vital to maintain in the cast's chemistry without simply giving us Coach 2 or Diane 2. In Coach's case, they didn't try to replace Sam's "kindly uncle/father figure." But they didn't "defang" Sam by making Woody his surrogate son. Rebecca provided opportunity for the screwball comedy flirtation with Sam but she was such a different character, we didn't feel like we were repeating ourselves.<br /><br />I never got the impression that BUFFY figured out what the show would be once major elements changed: Loss of setting, loss of maternal figure, loss of paternal figure, aging of cast. Really, the series had ongoing storylines about why Xander and Giles were still around. It was as if they were filming writers meetings. Stephen Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03670422634319094941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-22974344821571544802016-08-29T15:59:03.887-07:002016-08-29T15:59:03.887-07:00I had a similar experience I read all the praise I...I had a similar experience I read all the praise I just didn't get what was so great about it. Everybody bitchin. I lasted 2 showsor maybe it was 1 1/2 it sucked. Pat Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11718863205229359990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-72422214261759732572016-08-29T15:32:36.130-07:002016-08-29T15:32:36.130-07:00During the first season, Unreal had one main centr...During the first season, <i>Unreal</i> had one main central conflict: Could Rachel work on a reality show and still be a good person? Unfortunately, it became clear pretty quickly that she couldn't. By the end of the season, it was obvious that she was just as soulless as the people she worked with.<br /><br />Every once in a while, the writers remember that Rachel is supposed to have a conscience and give us an episode based around a compelling moral dilemma. But for the most part, it's just a show about awful people doing awful things. The only central conflict is: Which awful person is in charge? So the show is mostly a series of increasingly horrifying stunts, in the name of satire.<br /><br />Constance Zimmer, however, deserves an Emmy, and she may get one, if anybody is still watching.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15616847561066820280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-77214947150963589702016-08-29T15:21:57.331-07:002016-08-29T15:21:57.331-07:00For anyone interested, this is a wonderful intervi...For anyone interested, this is a wonderful interview with Gene Wilder just three years ago in which he talks about his career and what he thinks of modern comedy. He was as entertaining and witty as ever, particularly when he talks about the right way to use swearing in comedy and the wrong way. <br /><br />https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ezfVc5MGmIU Peternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-91505830052564908332016-08-29T14:29:52.191-07:002016-08-29T14:29:52.191-07:00I think we’re supposed to root for the Rachel char...I think we’re supposed to root for the Rachel character, at least in the first season. That’s difficult because she doesn’t transcend the pressures of the situation – i.e., she does what you have to do if you’re working on a reality show. And it isn’t pretty.<br /><br />What UnREAL did well in the first few episodes was to reveal what those sintuational pressure are and how the producers on The Suitor manipulate the contestants into doing things that may be bad for the contestants but good for the ratings. For those of us who have seen The Bachelor only from in front of the TV, the backstage view was a revelation. We leaned that the word “produce” is a synonym for manipulate, and that the producers manipulate the contestants into increasingly contrived situations designed to elicit powerful feelings, usually unpleasant<br /><br />But then Noxon-Shapiro started doing to their characters what the producers on The Suitor did to the contestants – manipulate them into increasingly contrived situations designed to elicit powerful feelings, usually unpleasant.<br /><br />In the second season (which I made the mistake of watching), the root-for character is Jay (Black and gay), but he doesn’t get much screen time, so his character is not fully developed. What we see is that he lacks the desperate ambition of some of the characters and the nastiness of others, and he wants to do the right thing, not just “produce” his contestants. <br />Jay Livingstonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03797268351984440375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-72761006776796145052016-08-29T13:51:51.004-07:002016-08-29T13:51:51.004-07:00I haven't watched, but I wonder if what it nee...I haven't watched, but I wonder if what it needs is a counterpoint, a fish out of water, say, the sweet new college grad working there. Then someone-a sympathetic character--is experiencing the horror as we viewers are. Maybe it's like Bob Newhart amidst the oddballs, Maya on Just Shoot Me, the girl in Baskets. Neummsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-24439439302793279362016-08-29T13:46:30.150-07:002016-08-29T13:46:30.150-07:00Compare and contrast the Lifetime show with Lisa K...Compare and contrast the Lifetime show with Lisa Kudrow and company's work on The Comeback for HBO. Lisa's Valerie Cherish may have have been a vacuous, washed-up star of an 80s sitcom, but in the making of her reality show, you were shown a very human being underneath the Hollywood facade. <br /><br />Kudrow's take worked on entirely too many levels to ever have made the cut at Lifetime...courtneynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-82294959977336668822016-08-29T13:15:41.439-07:002016-08-29T13:15:41.439-07:00Just heard the news that Gene Wilder has died.
In...Just heard the news that Gene Wilder has died.<br /><br />In an era when every two bit no talent is called a legend, Gene Wilder truly was a legend and a comedy genius. He gave me so much joy with his acting. And in interviews he always came across as thoroughly decent and down to earth.<br /><br />Another great has left us. Thank you for all the laughs.<br /><br />Ken, will you be writing a tribute to him? Would love to know which of his films you like.Peternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-1688373721461779422016-08-29T13:15:15.320-07:002016-08-29T13:15:15.320-07:00Well, after reading Rashad Khan's comment, per...Well, after reading Rashad Khan's comment, perhaps I'm completely wrong to point the finger at Ms Noxon. It may well have been her co-producer who is really responsible for the apparent overt cynicism. <br /><br />PS - I would still be very interested in your thoughts on the "sad com", Ken. From Rick and Morty to Bojack Horseman to Louis CK, it seems we're drowning in darker comedy these days. I wonder what that's about.Johnny Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13302545167970532080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-11449977710709440862016-08-29T13:02:41.113-07:002016-08-29T13:02:41.113-07:00I haven't seen UNREAL, but from your descripti...I haven't seen UNREAL, but from your description it sounds like a biting satire -- admittedly with no-one to root for.<br /><br />That said, and while I'm also a fan of Noxon, but I can say this: The two years she ran BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER (seasons 6 and 7), after Joss Whedon placed his attentions elsewhere, were *incredibly* depressing. I know Whedon fully supported Noxon's direction, but Whedon's Buffy was a classic, but relatable, Hero. She went through crap, but she was strong in a way that we, as the audience, admired and wanted to emulate. She was steadfast and loyal and witty and, yes, human.<br /><br />When Noxon took the helm, she became MUCH more human. She was suddenly moody, withdrawn and tormented, and quickly went off the rails. She even turned on her friends. (Imagine Sam in CHEERS spending an entire season miserable and withdrawn, bitterly insulting Norm and Cliff whenever he saw them. Sure, BUFFY handled drama, and would do dark storylines, but the change wasn't that far off.)<br /><br />Whedon used this change in character for an amazing episode he penned halfway through season 6 (that remains one of the best -- "Once More With Feeling"). It revealed the reason for her change in behaviour, and it was very human, and it made sense, but Buffy never progressed after that revelation. She started the season broken, and, for the remainder of Noxon's run, she stayed broken. She was no longer the Hero. She no longer had qualities we admired, she could no longer handle the pain of her life. Rather than showing us how to deal with difficulties, she succumbed to them herself.<br /><br />It was like Arthur Conan Doyle decided to do a bunch of stories where Holmes stopped solving crimes and started dealing with dementia... Yes, a very human and heartbreaking tale that would be, but it would no longer be Sherlock Holmes, and indeed Sarah Michelle Gellar no longer felt it was Buffy. She quit the show when her contract came up for renewal.<br /><br />There were some amazing moments in Noxon's stretch as showrunner, but her tastes definitely run to the darker end of the spectrum, without much interest in balancing things out.Johnny Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13302545167970532080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-57123931026323296212016-08-29T12:45:23.290-07:002016-08-29T12:45:23.290-07:00Joe, maybe you think you've passed them, but t...Joe, maybe you think you've passed them, but the computer certainly doesn't. I've never gotten a second round when I was sure I had gotten them all. I think a big mistake is the street signs, you have to ignore the post holding up the sign.MikeNnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-58361411069268309522016-08-29T12:40:40.571-07:002016-08-29T12:40:40.571-07:00David Hyde Pierce has been in 6 Broadway shows sin...David Hyde Pierce has been in 6 Broadway shows since Frasier ended, and he's scheduled to do the revival of Hello Dolly in 2017, so it's not like he's been idle.CRLnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-67941447492660384262016-08-29T11:45:15.278-07:002016-08-29T11:45:15.278-07:00Crazy Ex-Girlfriend deserves EVERYONE'S attent...Crazy Ex-Girlfriend deserves EVERYONE'S attention! 👍Myleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07139984409445302062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-12705087080201844172016-08-29T11:42:00.787-07:002016-08-29T11:42:00.787-07:00Completely agree. Fell for all the hype and buzz a...Completely agree. Fell for all the hype and buzz around it's premiere and couldn't get thru it. Gave up during the 2nd episode as well. Never once on the edge of my seat. Never once thrilled or smiling. Also don't watch the Bachelor but I used to watch a lot of other reality dating shows and generally like things that "pull back the curtain" as well. Also love Constance. Somehow this didn't do it for me AT ALL tho. Glad I'm not alone.Myleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07139984409445302062noreply@blogger.com