tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post6283489768291576011..comments2023-11-03T06:02:02.128-07:00Comments on By Ken Levine: The Comedy Debate ContinuesBy Ken Levinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17305293821975250420noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-86152717492407386142015-10-19T00:21:53.312-07:002015-10-19T00:21:53.312-07:00I think Cheers is the greatest pure sitcom of all ...I think Cheers is the greatest pure sitcom of all time. But this either/or argument Ken is posting is seriously weak, and alleging that ratings signifies either quality (give me a break) or that millennials prefer Dr. Ken (sorry, check the demos) is horseshit too. <br /><br />All of those multi-cam shows currently on the air are dreck. The fact that they get ratings? Big fucking deal. McDonalds is the most popular restaurant in the world, and WalMart is a billion dollar business. Both places suck. <br /><br />Louie is the best half-hour on television right now, and arguably one of the shows that would fall into the category Ken is railing against. There are times when the show doesn't have one laugh, and there are times when it's holy-shit funny. Go and argue that Louis CK can't be funny, and it's not a choice. <br /><br />Again, Cheers, Friends, All in The Family, there is so much there that stands the test of time. But Ken's argument seems to be as rigidly adherent to "in MY day, things were like THIS". Arguing that your subjective taste/style is better and more valid, just because it's more popular, or just because this new style doesn't speak to you, is as ossified as someone that proudly sports they don't get hip-hop. <br /><br />In case you aren't aware, that started out niche, and was called a fad, too. <br /><br />smoothlatinkidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16398504985543865920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-83888023515356440462015-10-14T22:54:45.745-07:002015-10-14T22:54:45.745-07:00Gotta say that both you and Earl make excellent po...Gotta say that both you and Earl make excellent points.<br /><br />Where I disagree with you, Ken, is where you say that "millenials" are tuning into multi-camera hits like "Big Bang" and even, egad, "Dr. Ken" in large numbers.<br /><br />Earl is right- those younger audiences aren't tuning into network TV comedy in large numbers period. Those CBS hits are driven by CBS' reliable old fogey target audience. Yes, even "Big Bang", which is full of young actors playing nerdy characters and the late-but-not-lamented "Two and a Half Men." Even "Two Broke Girls."<br /><br />Neither those shows nor the "hipper" single cams like "New Girl" and "Mindy" are making much of a blip with younger viewers.<br /><br />Thus the problem. The older viewers crave the traditional sitcom format, even if it's smutty like "Men" or features young characters like "Big Bang" or even if they're just plain awful like some of your other examples. <br /><br />-Peter G<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-81705615234884504192015-10-13T21:20:08.361-07:002015-10-13T21:20:08.361-07:00MikeN: All those shows had laugh tracks. But they ...MikeN: All those shows had laugh tracks. But they were put in because that was the fashion. There was no audience when the shows were being filmed, so they could have dispensed with jokes if they wanted to. They didn't want to.cadavranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-12465628020096486382015-10-13T13:44:28.180-07:002015-10-13T13:44:28.180-07:00"I’m funny how? I mean funny, like I’m a clow..."I’m funny how? I mean funny, like I’m a clown? I amuse you? I make you laugh? I’m here to fuckin’ amuse you? Whattya you mean funny? Funny how? How am I funny?"chuckcdnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-58967915538920884832015-10-13T13:25:43.029-07:002015-10-13T13:25:43.029-07:00If you have a little time, I'd recommend liste...If you have a little time, I'd recommend listening to Dan Harmon's commentary on this episode of the Yahoo! season of "Community."<br /><br />https://screen.yahoo.com/communitary/communitary-community-episode-7-advanced-154501969.html<br /><br />Around the 19:00 mark, Harmon talks about how he intricately tried to establish his "story circle" (a writing concept of his own design) for that episode, but sees other shows that don't put nearly so much thought into such things getting a better reception. "People want jokes!" he marvels.<br /><br /><br />I think sitcoms became tired because there was such a reliance on old comedy conceits, some of which go back to the age of vaudeville. In a pop-culture soaked world, younger generations have heard it all before... and aren't old enough to have forgotten it yet. I'm fine with jokes, as long as I don't see the punchlines coming a mile away.<br /><br />One of the reasons I really dislike The Big Bang Theory is that the joke setups are so obvious. I think the only reason they get any purchase with the audience at all is that Chuck Lorre was smart enough to change each old worn-out punchline to a reference to a random Star Trek character or obscure scientific theorem that makes the joke seem new. The point being, that show managed to combine a standard joke format with "reference humor." It doesn't have to be one or the other. (I think Lorre also benefitted from good timing in making a nerd-centric show at a time when nerd culture was starting to go mainstream.)Andy Rosenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-41374674236856982192015-10-13T10:13:02.966-07:002015-10-13T10:13:02.966-07:00Get Smart had a laugh track.Get Smart had a laugh track.MikeNnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-71393548460848235232015-10-13T01:52:54.856-07:002015-10-13T01:52:54.856-07:00@mark
And as for the comedy of mistaken identities...<br />@mark<br />And as for the comedy of mistaken identities, has anyone ever done it better than Nat Hiken did on Car 54?<br /><br />Well, there was some old English guy, I think his name was Shakespeare, who wasn't half bad at it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-41834595149784308072015-10-12T22:42:07.863-07:002015-10-12T22:42:07.863-07:00There were plenty of single-cam sitcoms back in th...There were plenty of single-cam sitcoms back in the old days--GET SMART, THE ADDAMS FAMILY, McHALE'S NAVY, CAR 54, F TROOP, et al--that were hilarious and remain so. They didn't need a studio audience to get big laughs; they still had plenty of jokes.<br /><br />Bottom line (IMHO, of course)--Comedy without jokes is like baseball without a bat.cadavranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-66484455221210668542015-10-12T21:43:59.806-07:002015-10-12T21:43:59.806-07:00What did I hear somewhere? Let me think... Oh yea...What did I hear somewhere? Let me think... Oh yeah! Somebody said, "Make 'em laugh"!<br />Ralphiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17268930569461174609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-7482020309330663602015-10-12T21:10:06.309-07:002015-10-12T21:10:06.309-07:00@M- I have tried to watch The Mindy Project severa...@M- I have tried to watch The Mindy Project several times and just don`t think it`s funny or enlightening. ( My taste I guess). When I watch a Seinfeld episode I`m guaranteed a laugh.I even liked the finale of Seinfeld that no one else in the world liked because it showed the funny and complete narcissism of the characters. I don`t know what it is- character, chemistry...?mmryan314https://www.blogger.com/profile/03956737239500293977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-78404797095303645022015-10-12T21:02:33.743-07:002015-10-12T21:02:33.743-07:00"Mom" is female-oriented (just by the na..."Mom" is female-oriented (just by the nature of its title), but I don't think men view it as a "chick show" by any means.<br /><br />As for "The Mindy Project," I watched an episode for the presence of guest Francine York, a good Facebook friend of mine, and while I found it funny, the absence of a live audience made me feel disengaged from the episode. (Perhaps it's generational.) There's no reason "Mindy" couldn't be done before an audience, with exterior scenes shot and played back during the filming. Unless you're doing something like "M*A*S*H" that's almost entirely filmed outdoors, or a fantasy series such as "Sabrina, the Teenage Witch" with a heavy reliance on special effects, there's no reason most sitcoms can't be done before a live audience. VP81955https://www.blogger.com/profile/11792390726196611188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-14363257561535300672015-10-12T20:11:43.270-07:002015-10-12T20:11:43.270-07:00Out of curiosity, Ken, have you watched The Mindy ...Out of curiosity, Ken, have you watched The Mindy Project lately? In my opinion, it's a hilarious, well-written show. In terms of tone and joke density, it's far closer to 30 Rock than to Life in Pieces. I attribute its low ratings partly to the fact that it took a while to find its footing (the pilot is a poor representation of what the show has become). I also wonder if sexism played a role. I think men saw the ads, assumed it was a "chick show," and stayed away, even though I've watched the show with men who've laughed out loud with me. You've mentioned the show's low ratings many times, but do you have any theory as to why that is? Other than your original theory that Mindy Kaling is just not leading lady material?Mnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-56545595218242587642015-10-12T20:06:52.809-07:002015-10-12T20:06:52.809-07:00My Name Is Earl may not have a laugh track, but it...My Name Is Earl may not have a laugh track, but it is quite funny. <br />The part where his brother says 'Can we finish with the list' is one of the funniest moments in TV history. I would compare it to the end of the fourth episode of Lost with Locke's flashback scene in terms of long term setup.MikeNnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-62627213370661589832015-10-12T20:05:11.804-07:002015-10-12T20:05:11.804-07:00Ken, you left out the biggest new comedy of the se...Ken, you left out the biggest new comedy of the season - Quantico. They should just advertise it as -If you think State of Affairs is too realistic...<br /><br /><br />MikeNnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-91940448686698767712015-10-12T19:27:03.640-07:002015-10-12T19:27:03.640-07:00So laugh at me but I like to end my day happy. Not...So laugh at me but I like to end my day happy. Not one of the new shows, save Brooklyn Ninety-Nine even makes me smile, so I revert to the old feel good humour of MASH or Cheers or Seinfeld to soothe my soul. They are all shows based on relationships not just on jokes. I`'ll have to watch Mom- I think I`d like it. Millennial? I guess I`m not, I simply like funny.mmryan314https://www.blogger.com/profile/03956737239500293977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-55926220150967871692015-10-12T18:37:51.180-07:002015-10-12T18:37:51.180-07:00MikeK.Pa. said...
I recently was watching recent r...<i>MikeK.Pa. said...<br />I recently was watching recent re-showing of TCM's series on Hollywood movie heads titled THE MOGULS. They showed a clip from a Harold Lloyd movie - didn't catch the title, but I'm sure someone will reply with it quickly - in which he's courting a girl and daydreaming he looks down at a basket and imagines twin babies in a carriage - with his trademark glasses. I screamed with laughter. </i><br /><br />Sounds like "Girl Shy," my favorite Lloyd feature. It doesn't have the iconic thrill of the building climb in "Safety Last!", but it <i>does</i> feature a multi-modal chase -- using everything from streetcars to chariots -- through 1924 Los Angeles, as Harold attempts to stop the woman he loves from marrying someone he's found out to be a bigamist. (It inspired a similar "stop the wedding" scene in "The Graduate.") A truly funny film with clever character development.VP81955https://www.blogger.com/profile/11792390726196611188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-90279257370101780742015-10-12T18:30:21.792-07:002015-10-12T18:30:21.792-07:00I wish "Mom" could be included in this d...I wish "Mom" could be included in this debate. Remember "Mom"? Anna Faris, Allison Janney <i>et al</i>? Two generations of recovering alcoholics, part of a dysfunctional, struggling family? A well-written blend of jokes and character development. I'm guessing many of you don't remember it, since its final episode of season 2 aired April 30, and thanks to CBS football commitments, its season 3 debut won't air until Nov. 5 <i>-- a span of more than half a year between episodes.</i> Hard to get any kind of traction in that situation, and if it weren't for trying to placate Chuck Lorre and his 800-pound gorilla "The Big Bang Theory," I doubt "Mom" would still be on the schedule (though last year it averaged just under 10 million viewers). Too bad, because it's quietly terrific and easily the best sitcom in the Lorre stable, proof that a multi-cam indeed can have substance.VP81955https://www.blogger.com/profile/11792390726196611188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-26513232657835698132015-10-12T18:21:35.893-07:002015-10-12T18:21:35.893-07:00I still think a good joke starts with character. I...I still think a good joke starts with character. I can see why people are irritated by a clumsy contrivance that clearly only exists to set up a gag. I suspect in many such cases the writer came up with the gag first and had to find a way to set it up. But if a writer sets the main scene and lets the characters drive the action, the jokes will be (to use a tired cliche) more "organic".<br /><br />I found it annoying at times to see characters act wildly out of character just for the sake of one joke. Yes, I know none of it is real, but it annoys me nevertheless.<br /><br />I'm sure even Ken and David have on occasion stretched things for a joke they love, but I suspect that Ken's skepticism about the current state of writing talent stems from a lack of people who can (or choose to) take this character-first approach. Tomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-4981148526221167082015-10-12T17:26:51.907-07:002015-10-12T17:26:51.907-07:00I tend to side with Ken on this. There have been ...I tend to side with Ken on this. There have been single camera shows for years that were genuinely funny, from Andy Griffith to "My Name is Earl" to "30 Rock." Even the comedy of self-conscious embarrassment was funny the first time ("The Office"). But when people pull this Emperor's New Clothes stuff about how "This is the 'new comedy.' It's not SUPPOSED to be funny, and you're just too square to get it," I take that as a pretentious excuse for not knowing how to be funny. I've also never bought that younger generations can't appreciate older generations' humor. When I was 12, I loved silent movies and my favorite comedians were the Marx Brothers and W.C. Fields, whose great work was done decades before I was born. I just gave my niece and her two small daughters a set of Abbott and Costello DVDs, which they love. Her kids also love the Disney Channel sitcoms, so I guess that means that in 15 or 20 years, the post-Millennial generation will all want nothing but multi-cam shows. <br /><br />But let's be frank, Ken: neither you nor Earl understand what comedy is these days. After the Emmys, I complained about "Transparent" winning all the comedy awards, when it is not only not funny, it doesn't even seem to be trying to be funny (for all I can tell, its sole purpose is to annoy me). But someone on this board explained that the definition of "comedy" has nothing to do with content, just length. If a show is 30 minutes, it's automatically a comedy, and if it's an hour, it's a drama (And if it's 30 minutes and feels like an hour, it's "Two Broke Girls"). Using the Emmy standard, "An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge" is a laff riot, and "It's A Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World" is the most serious drama since "Hamlet." <br />Pat Reedernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-4009661039264425592015-10-12T14:38:05.011-07:002015-10-12T14:38:05.011-07:00I recently was watching recent re-showing of TCM&#...I recently was watching recent re-showing of TCM's series on Hollywood movie heads titled THE MOGULS. They showed a clip from a Harold Lloyd movie - didn't catch the title, but I'm sure someone will reply with it quickly - in which he's courting a girl and daydreaming he looks down at a basket and imagines twin babies in a carriage - with his trademark glasses. I screamed with laughter. Which got me to wondering what's your feeling about sight gags in sitcoms? I could think of classic ones from THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW, THE HONEYMOONERS and I LOVE LUCY but couldn't think of any recent ones. Are they outdated like the silent movies, which relied on them and made comedies by Keaton, Chaplin and Lloyd truly universal (except for the translated title cards) and timeless?MikeK.Pa.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-87292313034902830162015-10-12T14:34:57.459-07:002015-10-12T14:34:57.459-07:00I love Earl and his work and his blog. Super talen...I love Earl and his work and his blog. Super talented and funny. However I really felt he missed the point of your original post, and you've hit the nail on the head as to why.Johnny Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13302545167970532080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-73889399405005567612015-10-12T14:12:03.906-07:002015-10-12T14:12:03.906-07:00You don't like hip-hop? I was wondering why yo...You don't like hip-hop? I was wondering why you hadn't reviewed Straight Outta Compton.<br /><br />But you and David wrote some dope lyrics for Sam's groin injury rap. Now that was a funky tune. If I remember correctly, that was the episode in which Sam asks Carla how he did as a TV sports host and she said "it was like watching old people eat." Classic.Peternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-9356529975336560262015-10-12T14:02:40.318-07:002015-10-12T14:02:40.318-07:00Of course, a lot of those dependable comedic devic...Of course, a lot of those dependable comedic devices were developed and/or perfected on the single-camera Andy Griffith Show.<br /><br />And as for the comedy of mistaken identities, has anyone ever done it better than Nat Hiken did on Car 54?Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14705408455380402571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-27232273854630626362015-10-12T13:07:07.536-07:002015-10-12T13:07:07.536-07:00Why not get John Swartzwelder to weigh in on this?...Why not get John Swartzwelder to weigh in on this? Maybe he could do a Siskel-and-Ebert type of podcast with Thomas Pynchon.Bill Avenanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-25200047008524098312015-10-12T12:42:57.400-07:002015-10-12T12:42:57.400-07:00Ken, I would love to agree with you, but I think c...Ken, I would love to agree with you, but I think comedy has changed in the last 25 years, and not just comedy in the media.<br /><br />When I was a kid working in a grocery store every salesman that came through the door had a joke to tell me (the milkmen always had the best ones for some reason). When I was in college everyone would quickly turn to the jokes in Playboy and find a couple they could steal, and it was a big accomplishment if you were the first in your crowd with the joke. Even my Grandmother would snag a couple from Reader's Digest every month.<br /><br />When was the last time someone came up to you and said, "Say did you hear the one about the traveling salesman and the farmer's daughter . . .?" Or when was the last time you heard someone repeating a joke, an actual joke, they had heard on late night television?<br /><br />I think the joke has been replaced by the link to the funny cat on YouTube. As a result, what passes for "funny" in the media has changed along with it.ODJenningsnoreply@blogger.com