tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post7255934378740294054..comments2023-11-03T06:02:02.128-07:00Comments on By Ken Levine: Another rant: in defense of "jokes." By Ken Levinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17305293821975250420noreply@blogger.comBlogger61125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-332875026945147712014-03-25T22:29:45.495-07:002014-03-25T22:29:45.495-07:00@Alan
No, "Trester" actually was correc...@Alan<br /><br />No, "Trester" actually was correct in his analysis of the Vulture.com article. However, you seem to be carrying water for Adalian and/or The Mindy Project, judging from your defensive posts on this site.<br /><br />Joe Adalian is well-known as a cheerleader for Fox. Fox knows this, and reciprocates by giving him "exclusive" interviews with mid-level Fox executives, and occasionally with Kevin Reilly.<br /><br />Adalian reprints their spin as gospel, and occasionally even gets some swag -- t-shirts, a free lunch, etc -- for his efforts. <br /><br />But "Alan," you're so, so naive with your "Fox would not have renewed a money-loser" thesis. Fox cancelled DADS -- not a great show, but which outdrew THE MINDY PROJECT in total viewers AND the key demos.<br /><br />Reilly simply made a boneheaded decision renewing a ratings stinker like Mindy. (Which by the way, is NOT strong enough in female audience to justify renewal.) Because of this, it's Tuesday night ad rates are going to suffer next year.<br /><br />Industry trades pointed out "Reilly's Folly" the next day. So Fox -- in need of damage control -- used Adalian as stenographer to gin up an excuse for its actions.<br /><br />And you ate it up with a spoon! LOL!Martinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-48953669589254753012014-03-25T11:02:50.865-07:002014-03-25T11:02:50.865-07:00So if this is how you define jokes, then I wold ha...So if this is how you define jokes, then I wold have to say that "The Mindy Project" and "New Girl" have jokes like that. I laugh audibly through the whole shows. They are just different kind of jokes. They have smart jokes, silly jokes, quirky jokes, etc. I wouldn't say the shows you mentioned are without jokes. I would say it's just a different sense of humor.Stephannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-51411097533122973792014-03-21T16:55:19.533-07:002014-03-21T16:55:19.533-07:00FRASIER'S 2014 VISIT TO CHEERS...
...FRASIER'S 2014 VISIT TO CHEERS...<br /><br /><br /> FRASIER<br /> Of course, today is the 111 year anniversary<br /> of the Wright Brothers at Kitty Hawk. Orville<br /> Wright FINALLY managed to stay up, but<br /> only for 12 seconds.<br /><br />CLIFFY turns to NORM.<br /><br /> CLIFFY<br /> (quietly)<br /> Eh... much to the disappointment of<br /> Mrs. Wright.<br /><br />NORM shuts his eyes - TIGHTLY!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12994061968428516100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-21409899391839452562014-03-21T15:36:30.153-07:002014-03-21T15:36:30.153-07:00"Albert Giesbrecht said...
A sitcom without j...<i>"Albert Giesbrecht said...<br />A sitcom without jokes is like The Waltons without John-Boy."</i><br /><br />Yes, and a sitcom with jokes like that is like a turgid drama.<br />D. McEwannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-42455881772019295732014-03-21T12:18:42.477-07:002014-03-21T12:18:42.477-07:00Interesting post, Ken. But even though you provid...Interesting post, Ken. But even though you provided a definition of "joke," I'm still not sure I understand what you mean by the term. When you say, "with humorous intention," are you talking about the character's intention, or the sitcom writer's?<br /><br />Let's focus on dialogue for the moment. To qualify as a joke, does a line have to be spoken by a character who's trying to be funny? (And succeeding, in the case of a good joke?)<br /><br />I get that it's a joke when Hawkeye Pierce zings somebody. But is it a joke, by your definition, when Michael Scott cluelessly says something inappropriate and everybody stares in shock?<br /><br />Clearly, both of those things can be really funny and can make a viewer burst out laughing (if you're the sort of viewer who actually laughs out loud at TV shows). But in the Hawkeye case, it's both Hawkeye and the sitcom writer who are intending to be funny, whereas in the Michael Scott case, it's only the sitcom writer.<br /><br />So are they both jokes, by your definition, or is only the Hawkeye line a joke? Thanks -- I find this stuff really interesting to think about.Roynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-3356769705099368472014-03-21T00:10:09.295-07:002014-03-21T00:10:09.295-07:00A sitcom without jokes is like The Waltons without...A sitcom without jokes is like The Waltons without John-Boy.Albert Giesbrechthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17742338183833125104noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-47234374173585593652014-03-20T21:06:25.068-07:002014-03-20T21:06:25.068-07:00Sorry, correction to the above, I think the second...Sorry, correction to the above, I think the second era of the single cams started approximately with Malcom in the Middle before The Office. Yes, give or take some exceptions over the years, but you have to admit thats generally that's the starting point. Alannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-69160975278805195282014-03-20T21:03:03.717-07:002014-03-20T21:03:03.717-07:00No such day ever existed. There were always single...<i>No such day ever existed. There were always single-camera sit-coms, back to the early 1950s.</i><br /><br />Yes, you are absolutely correct but then they died for about 30 years. I suppose I was referring to my own frame of reference, which is the late 1970's through to early 2000's, an era where the big studio multi-cam sitcom thrived and before the new era of the single cam that started with The Office. <br /><br />I can basically throw out random cliches and create a 1980s multi-cam sitcom...<br /><br />Name: something bland like "Times Like These" or "People Like Us"<br /><br />Add-ons: A quirky neighbor or a sassy black housekeeper, often with a catchphrase (eg: Urkel's "Did I do That?")<br /><br />Required Plot Device # 1: A wedding that gets cancelled at the altar.<br /><br />Required Plot Device # 2: By season 2 or 3, usually a pregnancy storyline, followed by a baby that ages from 2 months to about 6 in one season.<br /><br />Required Plot Device # 3: Once per season, A Very Special Episode with no laughs, that teaches us about drugs or teen pregnancy.<br /><br />Presto! You have any random family multi-cam from 1981 to 2001. <br />Alannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-89168234530161477352014-03-20T20:55:46.252-07:002014-03-20T20:55:46.252-07:00You intentionally chose an apples-and-oranges comp...<i>You intentionally chose an apples-and-oranges comparison, and not only because you used HBO vs. CBS. If you substituted "Mom" (a much smarter series) for the lowbrow "Mike and Molly," you'd have a far more difficult time justifying your single-cam worship.</i><br /><br /><br />My point was that there is so much variety and creativity nowadays that old style, laugh track, fake-sets, generic multi-cam sitcoms feel very passe and very outdated. We live in a new era, where there is so much to be had from cable and internet shows, and yes, network single-cam shows. <br /><br />People are more than welcome to pretend it's 1988 and watch their generic studio multi-cams, but the past decade, ever since The Office and 30 Rock, has produced a whole new world out there of great new creative shows. Alannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-71494727188036436582014-03-20T18:24:57.593-07:002014-03-20T18:24:57.593-07:00"VP81955 said...
You can't do those thing...<i>"VP81955 said...<br />You can't do those things on a multi-cam series? Puh-leeze. They've been done on multi-cams since the days of "I Love Lucy" and "Dobie Gillis." Enough with the sitcom snobbery."</i><br /><br />While I very much agree with your overall point, VP, I must point out that <i>Dobie Gillis</i> was filmed single-camera, no studio audience.<br /><br /><i>"Alan said...<br />I have lots of fondness for the multi-cams of yesteryear. But that was in the days when there were no single cams."</i><br /><br />No such day ever existed. There were always single-camera sit-coms, back to the early 1950s. <i>The Abbott & Costello Show</i> is but a single example. In fact, prior to Desi Arnaz and Karl Freund inventing multi-camera on <i>I Love Lucy</i>, there were only single-camera sit-coms.D. McEwannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-79016973703971438162014-03-20T18:07:43.697-07:002014-03-20T18:07:43.697-07:00You watch Veep on HBO and then watch Mike and Moll...<i>You watch Veep on HBO and then watch Mike and Molly on CBS...they are like two totally different genres of show. Hard to believe that they can both be called sitcoms.</i><br /><br />You intentionally chose an apples-and-oranges comparison, and not only because you used HBO vs. CBS. If you substituted "Mom" (a much smarter series) for the lowbrow "Mike and Molly," you'd have a far more difficult time justifying your single-cam worship.VP81955https://www.blogger.com/profile/11792390726196611188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-49602032213767104182014-03-20T17:39:57.512-07:002014-03-20T17:39:57.512-07:00@Trester No, you are missing the point of the Ada...@Trester No, you are missing the point of the Adalian article. His point was that this is 2014, not 1988, when shows routinely got insanely high ratings, like 20 million viewers on an average night.<br /><br />In this era of PVRs, Netflix and multiple cable channels producing some very high-quality shows, ratings like that will never happen again. Networks know this. They look to other factors...and The Mindy Project performs very well among young women (women 18-35). If a show does well enough among Young People and that it can make money in syndication (after 88 episodes)<br /><br />FOX is a business. They would not have renewed a money-loser. They have had no qualms about cancelling other shows. They cancelled Raising Hope and the X Factor, and will probably cancel Dads and Enlisted. <br /><br />I know the passionate hatred Mindy seems to spark in people, but it does well enough to merit renewal.<br /><br />Adalian's article was to say that we live in a new era where so-called "low-rated" shows do get renewed. Get used to it. Alannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-70639432149117731902014-03-20T13:44:00.447-07:002014-03-20T13:44:00.447-07:00Ken,
Would you ever consider doing a drama that c...Ken,<br /><br />Would you ever consider doing a drama that contained a fair amount of humor? Something like West Wing that Sorkin did back in the day? Or are you the most comfortable doing sitcoms? Or will they only let you do sitcoms because that's how they know you and your work? Or does no one know you anymore?Codyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15244519478946026617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-72863588348397743142014-03-20T13:21:42.097-07:002014-03-20T13:21:42.097-07:00Maybe I'm in the minority, but I loved Friends...Maybe I'm in the minority, but I loved Friends and Seinfeld and agree that the humor in both of those have stood the test of time (I use this as an example that I agree on some of your humor analysis), and I love the Mindy Project and Brooklyn Nine-Nine. I think Modern Family and New Girl have their moments as well (and P&R & BBT both) but I legitimately laugh out loud at Mindy and Brooklyn more than any other show. But maybe it's my generation speaking? (I'm in my early 30s). Hard to say. I always appreciate your perspective though!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18202160343407556943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-7721831509458004352014-03-20T10:15:40.667-07:002014-03-20T10:15:40.667-07:00Ken,
How would you peg Ricky Gervais' The Off...Ken,<br /><br />How would you peg Ricky Gervais' The Office in this context. Do you consider that show to have a lot of jokes?Micahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06517754824493411838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-28670621172638419832014-03-20T09:33:31.772-07:002014-03-20T09:33:31.772-07:00And ou idn't evne menion the fact that a goo j...And ou idn't evne menion the fact that a goo joke can save your ass in a scene> Many times I have worked on scenes where a good joke could eliminate the need for a whole page of dialogue. Or better still, end a scene where it would have gone on far too long otherwise.Ger Apeldoornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03633862833036214748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-89593493135569899932014-03-19T20:27:57.520-07:002014-03-19T20:27:57.520-07:00No, the point of "Fat Joe" Adalian's...No, the point of "Fat Joe" Adalian's article was to be a wet, sloppy kiss to Kevin Reilly at Fox, for making a boneheaded, desperate programming decision when he renewed a chronically underperforming, critically disrespected, unfunny show called THE MINDY PROJECT.<br /><br />Adalian is Vulture.com's in-house Fox PR flack. That's all he is, and all he'll ever be.Tresternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-89058336816700066632014-03-19T19:28:18.284-07:002014-03-19T19:28:18.284-07:00But you are wrong if you think that's what a s...<i>But you are wrong if you think that's what a successful well-rated show looks like, and executives in search of a big hit are wrong to keep putting ironic-glance and awkward-"funny" shows on the air.</i><br /><br />No argument there. I know that the top rated sitcoms on the air over the last few years are the CBS multi-cams, like Big Bang Theory, Two and a Half Men, How I Met Your Mother, etc. <br /><br />But the point of the Joseph Adalian article is that those will be very few and far in between.<br /><br /> A lot of single camera sitcoms deliver strong enough ratings to a particular demographic that advertisers (and networks) will support them.<br /><br />This isn't about getting 16 million eyeballs on a show anymore. In the 80s and 90s, sitcoms regularly got up to 20 million viewers a night. This is an era of micro-demographics. <br /><br />Otherwise, why are networks continually green-lighting single cams? They are more expensive to produce and the ratings are lower. Why isn't every show a carbon copy of the CBS multi-cams?<br /><br />Networks see a value in the single-cam. And thank God for that. <br /><br />You watch Veep on HBO and then watch Mike and Molly on CBS...they are like two totally different genres of show. Hard to believe that they can both be called sitcoms. Alannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-64188046729418330022014-03-19T19:22:05.529-07:002014-03-19T19:22:05.529-07:00Enough with the sitcom snobbery.
I was prepared f...<i>Enough with the sitcom snobbery.</i><br /><br />I was prepared for that. Just as single-cam fans stereotype multi-cams as being lowbrow and unintelligent, multi-cam fans stereotype single-cam fans as being snobby and condescending.<br /><br />I have lots of fondness for the multi-cams of yesteryear. But that was in the days when there were no single cams. Now that there is comparison, the humour found in most multi-cam sitcoms today is centred around lame jokes that have to appeal to the broadest audience possible. <br /><br />I stand by my opinion that single camera sitcoms have a broader and more creative tools to explore "Humor" overall, as opposed to simply punchline-derived "jokes". <br /><br />It's my personal preference. <br />Alannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-84483215855565486372014-03-19T16:06:01.957-07:002014-03-19T16:06:01.957-07:00The great thing about single-camera sitcoms is tha...<i> The great thing about single-camera sitcoms is that they have opened the door to many new avenues of humor and ways to make us laugh...jokes, but also facial expressions, slapstick, a certain look or reaction shot, puns and sarcasm, in sight gags, in plays on words, etc., etc. </i><br /><br />You can't do those things on a multi-cam series? <i>Puh-leeze.</i> They've been done on multi-cams since the days of "I Love Lucy" and "Dobie Gillis." Enough with the sitcom snobbery.<br /><br />VP81955https://www.blogger.com/profile/11792390726196611188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-80529083447488523262014-03-19T04:24:40.004-07:002014-03-19T04:24:40.004-07:00Who knew that suggesting comedies should have more...Who knew that suggesting comedies should have more JOKES would prove to be so controversial? <br />Mindy and Parks and Rec fans, don't have an aneurysm. Ken didn't say you couldn't enjoy these shows if you like them. He's simply explaining why the ratings for the show with jokes (Modern Family and Big Bang)are 300% and 500% higher than the ratings for the shows without jokes. Yes, that's right, 500% higher for The Big Bang Theory than Parks and Rec. <br /> <br />No one said you're wrong to laugh at Parks and Rec. <br />But you are wrong if you think that's what a successful well-rated show looks like, and executives in search of a big hit are wrong to keep putting ironic-glance and awkward-"funny" shows on the air.<br />Jokes are necessary for a hit comedy. That is all.PJnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-72523137339841107112014-03-19T01:20:26.486-07:002014-03-19T01:20:26.486-07:00One important sensibility shared by Cheers and Fra...One important sensibility shared by Cheers and Frasier, was that the actors weren't young tweens or teens playing as if older, nor were they older adults behaving as if the world was just more high school, even when you get married and have careers -- the essential feel for Big Bang Theory and so many more. Sure Frasier had more disposable income than was possible as a radio host, but his situations, farce included, were plausible to character. Jokes are always good to have, but sitcoms need characters and relationships, but BBT and so many sitcoms, both horrible and succesful, only seem to work when everyone is still in a high school situation. The BBT nerd references still go back to there. But to be in your 30s and career scientists to be speaking only about high school experiences? The relationships copy that behavior through to marriage (Bernadette is Mom having Howard on an allowance etc.)<br />While I agree great jokes are part of a sitcom chemistry, the reality the jokes are situated in has to have something making the laughs even more of a rich reward. Ironically, as sitcom characters got dumbed down to cartoon types, where it is impossible to have actually wanted to be admitting they were in college to study etc... certain tv animation delivered more range in voice acting and premises - and still do - there are more real sitcom laughs in a "Bob's Burgers" than in many so called "acting" sitcoms today. <br />And from the other angle, there are great tv programs on that decide to work with impro-related feel, rather than stand-up feel, and absorb the payoff of a big laughtrack joke into one long comedic premise. Delivery isn't focused on the joke but on the author's script and the whole ensemble delivery of that -- Dan Harmon's Community versus Chuck Lorre's BBT for but one example.<br /> A_Homernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-91893471968112340152014-03-18T22:31:09.734-07:002014-03-18T22:31:09.734-07:00What a narrow definition of humor. Humor is a wide...What a narrow definition of humor. Humor is a wide spectrum. I don't understand the point of focusing so much on "jokes". The great thing about single camera sitcoms, is that they have opened the door to many new avenues of humor and ways to make us laugh.....jokes, but also facial expressions, slapstick, a certain look or reaction shot, puns and sarcasm, in sight gags, in plays on words, etc etc. <br /><br />I don't actually find "jokes" all that funny. Even with stand up comedians, I prefer the "...did you ever notice..." humor to old-school Grandpa-at-the-dinner-table "Jokes". <br /><br />That's why I dislike multi-cams. The entire show is setting up a joke, deliver punchline, play laugh track. Repeat, repeat, repeat. <br /><br />It's like using 1 technique for humor when a single camera sitcom can use an entire bag of tricks for humor. Alannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-61116490304334195262014-03-18T21:33:48.882-07:002014-03-18T21:33:48.882-07:00Two of the shows that I often see getting passed a...Two of the shows that I often see getting passed around as the uber-examples of "smart" and "dumb" comedies, respectively, are Community and The Big Bang Theory. Endless discussions have I witnessed wherein Community is praised as being for smart sitcom watchers with smartness and smarts, while TBBT is talked about as appealing to the lowest common denominator even if they don't understand physics jokes and aren't really clear on what a denominator is. <br /><br />And both are built from floor-to-ceiling on JOKES. <br /><br />I hears ya, Ken. I hears ya bigtime. Moonhttp://www.moonhillproductions.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-16208958140460311682014-03-18T20:30:09.460-07:002014-03-18T20:30:09.460-07:00Someone mentioned Portlandia.
Portland cat attack:...Someone mentioned <i>Portlandia</i>.<br /><a href="http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/18/portland-cat-attack-lux-family-shelter" rel="nofollow">Portland cat attack:</a> 22lb cat attacks a family in Portland, Oregon. Family barricade themselves in bedroom and phone 911. Cat has since been sent to pet therapy for anger management.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06248182899977033579noreply@blogger.com