tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post734562060583000124..comments2023-11-03T06:02:02.128-07:00Comments on By Ken Levine: Writing advice you might not want to hearBy Ken Levinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17305293821975250420noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-64123949238134379972016-02-08T13:59:54.721-08:002016-02-08T13:59:54.721-08:00Good answer! I'm not an 'outline guy' ...Good answer! I'm not an 'outline guy' but I've learned to be one.<br /><br />-MMark Fearinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01633176474005577421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-76455506564096392102016-02-06T22:43:20.040-08:002016-02-06T22:43:20.040-08:00Ken
Can you do a post about Bob and Ray? I just fi...Ken<br />Can you do a post about Bob and Ray? I just finished their biography and have always been a big fan. Your thoughts?alan0825https://www.blogger.com/profile/12684922049452771909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-77989573764579037582016-02-06T21:00:49.755-08:002016-02-06T21:00:49.755-08:00In response to Mike's post:
There is software...In response to Mike's post:<br /><br />There is software to do both actually. The screenwriting software (most commonly Final Draft) can guide your formatting, but I also use Dramatica Story Expert, which helps with outlining a story that fits within a particular story structure or framework. It's helpful when I'm trying to write to a particular type of story, and even helps when I'm trying to write outside of that structure. As has been said by smarter people than me, you have to know the rules really well before you can break them.Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02305616385992111197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-36980061940053840422016-02-06T18:47:06.978-08:002016-02-06T18:47:06.978-08:00Thanks Ken, its these kind of posts that makes me ...Thanks Ken, its these kind of posts that makes me respect writers even more. Writing is hard - it was hard enough to just to write this comment!Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00760229533287495672noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-6940562465082385002016-02-06T13:28:10.958-08:002016-02-06T13:28:10.958-08:00Ken's process of outlining is completely analo...Ken's process of <i>outlining</i> is completely analogous to <i>top-down design</i> in engineering, in which the product is represented (or modelled) in varying degrees of abstraction by diagrams & text. Starting with the most abstract or highest level, each model is decomposed or refined into a lower level of abstraction by adding detail, using formal rules or methodology. At each level, the model can be rearranged using formal rules or algebra. This is the most efficient approach to design. The alternative approach, <i>bottom-up design</i>, requires constant rewriting and may never complete.<br />Use of this approach evolved computer programming from mere <i>coding</i> to <i>software design</i>.<br /><br />I gather software exists for aiding writing scripts, but this may be primarily for layout. Ken's process can be coded into a Computer Aided Scriptwriting software package, with an Artificial Intelligence interface. Or you could use pen & paper.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06248182899977033579noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-46181735004340125552016-02-06T12:50:33.461-08:002016-02-06T12:50:33.461-08:00>> Anonymous Anonymous said: @Joseph Scarbro...>> Anonymous Anonymous said: @Joseph Scarbrough: Whether or not they read the outlines is beside the point. They require them, anyway. >><br /><br />It occurs to me that even tho they're not read, outlines would be extremely helpful to the other writers, if it's a group setting. But even it's just yourself, I'd think an outline would help you yourself stay on track, because I could see how it's easy to lose sight of the road even tho you're the one who invented the road in the first place.ScottyBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-74290331537981423932016-02-06T12:45:21.304-08:002016-02-06T12:45:21.304-08:00@Ken Levine: I think in the past not too long ago,...@Ken Levine: I think in the past not too long ago, you gave us an example of what an outline looked like, and it was quite helpful and useful — and I'm not even a scriptwriter. Perhaps a link back to that blog post, because showing is usually more effective than just telling people how to do stuff?ScottyBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-20874157423102154912016-02-06T12:39:41.909-08:002016-02-06T12:39:41.909-08:00Hell yeah, @Ken Levine. About time you got firm wi...Hell yeah, @Ken Levine. About time you got firm with some of these people around here.ScottyBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-28638363095215946262016-02-06T12:01:37.765-08:002016-02-06T12:01:37.765-08:00I can come clean and admit that I am in fact "...I can come clean and admit that I am in fact "Chad," and I'm pleased to say that I did take Ken's advice and now I've become much less reluctant about outlining. I still should probably work at making them more thorough--mine tend to come in around 4-5 pages--but the process is definitely helpful, both in terms of having the story fleshed out before the script comes to pass, and giving you an abbreviated canvas to pick out and correct mistakes. So to Joseph and anyone else like me who struggled with it, I would say to give it a shot. Don't treat it as an outline; just imagine you're writing a short story that can stand on its own. <br /><br />(Oh yeah, the reason I submitted under the name "Chad" was because it was a week where all the Friday questions came from someone whose name started with C, or they were all one syllable, or something like that. It made sense at the time!)Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05482633830138335610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-75167433957090725952016-02-06T11:20:58.875-08:002016-02-06T11:20:58.875-08:00@Joseph Scarbrough: Whether or not they read the o...@Joseph Scarbrough: Whether or not they read the outlines is beside the point. They require them, anyway. <br /><br />I can see how selling via conceptual art would have worked for Sid and Marty Krofft, given the nature of their shows, but I'm not sure that would work too well for your average sitcom.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-68164299923070833332016-02-06T10:42:27.954-08:002016-02-06T10:42:27.954-08:00jcs: Isn't this what Joss Whedon did in 2008 w...jcs: Isn't this what Joss Whedon did in 2008 with DR HORRIBLE and Felicia Day with THE GUILD? and various others. <br /><br />wgWendy M. Grossmanhttp://www.pelicancrossing.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-77734662643318384192016-02-06T10:22:52.357-08:002016-02-06T10:22:52.357-08:00Friday Question: Ken, could you talk about what ha...Friday Question: Ken, could you talk about what happens after the first draft - is it just a back-and-forth between the writer and the showrunner, or do the other writers, the network etc. give further input? Thanks!Tammynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-28167221695990530552016-02-06T09:51:33.130-08:002016-02-06T09:51:33.130-08:00But, I've heard that studio heads and network ...But, I've heard that studio heads and network execs will more than likely <i>not</i> read outlines anyway - this is one of the reasons why whenever Sid & Marty Krofft pitched shows, they went in with conceptual artwork and such to actually show what it was they were pitching because they knew they were more likely to sell a show if they could see what it would be like as opposed to writing an outline they're not going to read anyway. I'm with Chad (or whatever his name is), I've only written an outline <i>once</i>, but I found I wasn't able to really flesh out the story that way and ended up going through with a first draft . . . that's gone through countless revisions, and probably still has a way to go. Seems like a lot of this mandatory corporate approach to shows and movies is really causing American entertainment to suffer in its artistic value: no wonder other countries are getting a lot more done - they actually care about the art of the whole thing, not the revenue.Joseph Scarbroughhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06851086150240380366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-31530651613369320652016-02-06T08:46:35.322-08:002016-02-06T08:46:35.322-08:00FRIDAY QUESTION
Louis CK got a lot of press cover...FRIDAY QUESTION<br /><br />Louis CK got a lot of press coverage after "self-publishing" his comedy HORACE AND PETE online. You often criticise networks for strangling showrunners and writers creatively. Do you by any chance know whether the networks are impressed by this shot across the bow? If CK's attempt is economically successful, do you think other heavyweights will follow his example? jcsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-89572240363138534862016-02-06T07:38:53.889-08:002016-02-06T07:38:53.889-08:00Oh, Mitchell Hundred, I would guess that the day w...Oh, Mitchell Hundred, I would guess that the day will be coming when the discipline of the outline, etc. as Ken does it will end up being de rigueur. Use his advice wisely. Roseannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08393487748949411049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-43218256979697010832016-02-06T07:25:24.250-08:002016-02-06T07:25:24.250-08:00If I remember correctly, Ellen Sandler said she an...If I remember correctly, Ellen Sandler said she and the writers at "Everybody Loves Raymond" were having really long network note calls re: their outlines. Then, Phil and the writers started to put a logline at the top of each outline and the calls became *significantly* shorter. Wallynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-724735969916935212016-02-06T07:17:12.604-08:002016-02-06T07:17:12.604-08:00Certainly this advice is still relevant if you'...Certainly this advice is still relevant if you're looking to get a job on TV, but I'm wondering how it applies to productions for streaming services. I mean, presumably they don't care whether you produce one episode per week, since they put everything out there in one big lump. And traditional time constraints obviously don't apply to them, so an outline wouldn't help to keep things under control in that regard.Mitchell Hundredhttp://twitter.com/sackobooksnoreply@blogger.com