tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post3378499273091316076..comments2023-11-03T06:02:02.128-07:00Comments on By Ken Levine: Symbolism in MASH: now it can be toldBy Ken Levinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17305293821975250420noreply@blogger.comBlogger86125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-31323939251840853162015-09-19T09:05:47.487-07:002015-09-19T09:05:47.487-07:00Peirce......Cutting wit
Honeycut.... sweet wit
Bur...Peirce......Cutting wit<br />Honeycut.... sweet wit<br />Burns........ Always hot under the collar<br />Klinger...... Barely holding on mentally<br />Flagg...... Always waving it<br />Potter.......Dowding old man<br />Spearchucker.......'nuf said<br />Winchester........always going off<br /><br />No symbolism? C'mon.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11047113237243062764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-19468329427939956452013-02-03T11:47:54.822-08:002013-02-03T11:47:54.822-08:00This is a fascinating discussion... although I stu...This is a fascinating discussion... although I stumbled across it several years too late. I still can't help but throw my oar in -- I came across this discussion, maybe someone else will, too.<br /><br />In Annie Hall, Allen originally wanted Fellini instead of Marshall McLuhan, which really would have been more appropriate. The person behind Allen in the queue would completely "misunderstand" one of Fellini's films and the director would appear to prove Allen's interpretation right.<br /><br />The reason this is interesting is because there's a school of thought that says, even if the author declares what their story is about, it doesn't mean they're right. The author is a slave to their own instincts, and try as they might to consciously say one thing, they may end up saying another...<br /><br />And that's exactly what happened to Allen with Annie Hall.<br /><br />To this day he's still disappointed with Annie Hall, and how it failed to reach the lofty heights he'd set for himself. In fact, he still considers it one of the biggest failures of his career.<br /><br />Fans of the film think differently.Johnny Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13302545167970532080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-11672963025918527112010-03-04T09:43:40.729-08:002010-03-04T09:43:40.729-08:00lol, wow, and to think i just watched the show for...lol, wow, and to think i just watched the show for fun. it never even occured to me for one second to analyze anything. i guess its because i just like to kinda zone out and just enjoy the program and just not use my brain at all. might be a bad thing, who knows?taryn nicolenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-6144939907212260992010-02-27T19:37:00.784-08:002010-02-27T19:37:00.784-08:00My husband says to me (he sez, he sez, lol) "...My husband says to me (he sez, he sez, lol) "Sweep the leg Johnny"<br /><br />And I say...<br /><br />I've read more and I understand more.<br /> <br />So...<br /><br />Good night. :)Anniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11372504263596883327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-65838421856108839582010-02-27T18:00:00.294-08:002010-02-27T18:00:00.294-08:00Kids! Play nice!Kids! Play nice!By Ken Levinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17305293821975250420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-54587250299370960332010-02-27T17:53:09.384-08:002010-02-27T17:53:09.384-08:00"Annie said...
D, you wanted to know what ki...<i>"Annie said... <br />D, you wanted to know what kind of dick you are (I'll refrain from using your coarser term). <br /><br />A pompous, bombastic rather floppy one."</i><br /><br />Annie, you owe Roger Owen Green an asperin.<br /><br /><br />"Prick" is "coarser" than "dick"? I missed the day when they were graded out that finely. Of course, I'm not a cranky, thin-skinned old gramma, just a pampous, floppy dick, so what do I know? I'd rather be what you consider pompous, than you.<br /><br />You <i>had</i> to start it up again. Well I can do this all day, old lady.D. McEwannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-3065314197946854492010-02-27T13:18:12.048-08:002010-02-27T13:18:12.048-08:00I should clarify-I always believed the things I wr...I should clarify-I always believed the things I write will outlive me and make an impact on others-the part that I hadn't thought about before was people dissecting the words.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03092805210074185421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-63236036550464942772010-02-27T05:16:18.203-08:002010-02-27T05:16:18.203-08:00I think that it's still instructive to note th...I think that it's still instructive to note that nobody is going around digging for deeper meaning in lame thirteen week wonder series with predictable plots, mannequin casts and stock plots and jokes in the scripts. <br /><br />It's still a compliment to you, Ken, as well as to the rest of the team that made MASH seem so much like real life, or a life we would want to experience, that people would be willing to make the emotional and intellectual investment necessary to infer symbolism where it was never implied.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-58765861973864908642010-02-26T13:21:04.077-08:002010-02-26T13:21:04.077-08:00Sometimes the writing process can amaze the writer...Sometimes the writing process can amaze the writer himself. I've been playing around with an unconventional autobiography. I'd written the intro months ago. When J.D. Salinger died, everyone was reprinting his famous first paragraph from The Catcher in the Rye. I hadn't read the book in more than a decade but when I went back and re-read mine, I realized that my opening contained a similar beat and tone to his. It's amazing what gets lodged in your brain and comes rolling out unconsciously. It wasn't meant to be an homage, but now it reads that way.Edward Copelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12463676135131274426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-58526450033432363822010-02-26T10:32:42.805-08:002010-02-26T10:32:42.805-08:00As related to MASH, I'm afraid of further anal...As related to MASH, I'm afraid of further analysis because it leads to this question about subconscious choices:<br /><br />Ya named him 'BJ'?Charles H. Bryanhttp://www.charleshbryan.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-76390985582779895062010-02-26T07:59:54.884-08:002010-02-26T07:59:54.884-08:00D. McEwan, Annie - you're giving me a headache...D. McEwan, Annie - you're giving me a headache.<br /><br />I was talking to someone about a Social Media seminar, and the problem was that the participants would get so snarky that the positive aspect of the gathering would fall apart.Roger Owen Greenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05298172138307632062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-74697621591374279762010-02-26T07:56:56.381-08:002010-02-26T07:56:56.381-08:00This really got me to thinking yesterday as I rode...This really got me to thinking yesterday as I rode the train to Pasadena about all the responsibilities I have as a writer (even though so far my work hasn't been published or filmed but it will) and how people are going to dissect the things I've written (especially since Cutting Confessions partially takes place in a psychiatric hospital with two brilliant and somewhat eccentric people in their own rights as the main characters) for a long, long time to come-definitely longer than I will ever be alive which is the case for anyone who writes something that leaves a mark as has Ken and many of his contemporaries. It's pretty fascinating to think about and something up until now I hadn't really given any thought.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03092805210074185421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-56184086801634302772010-02-26T06:57:16.721-08:002010-02-26T06:57:16.721-08:00So did Radar's teddy symbolize he had a thing ...So did Radar's teddy symbolize he had a thing for hairy gay men?<br /><br />Speaking of dumb criticisms of M*A*S*H, this one appeared in an EW.com comment yesterday (on, of all things, Conan opening a Twitter account):<br /><br /><i>That is what I really don’t like about Leno, he really does only “safe” comedy, very bland. Its like comparing 30 Rock vs MASH – 30 Rock will be hilarious becasue it tries different things and I cannot stop laughing whereas MASH was more of a “comfort” tv show – people became familiar and comfortable with the characters and that is why they watched, it really was not funny, maybe a chuckle here and there.</i><br /><br />Wow! If there were ever a less "comfortable" humor on a network sitcom than M*A*S*H, I can't think of it.<br /><br />Friday question: Could a show like M*A*S*H make it on network TV today? I'm assuming the budget was reasonable, but could the content get approved?Rock Golfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04945235295808697884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-31495852805037294692010-02-26T06:52:40.992-08:002010-02-26T06:52:40.992-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Rock Golfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04945235295808697884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-88613297890505026902010-02-26T06:29:11.082-08:002010-02-26T06:29:11.082-08:00I tried to read all seventy-one comments and didn&...I tried to read all seventy-one comments and didn't see the precise term mentioned, so I'll point out that Wikipedia has a decent entry on the intention issue that I don't know how to label into a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intentional_fallacy<br />It was a fairly early generation of lit professors who claimed we should not privilege the author's statements about intention, as part of the New Critics' trend of trying to look only at the work itself--what the writer said is outside the work. It's not the author who's guilty of fallacy, but those who trust the author's statements of intention as the only authoritative meaning.<br /><br />The thing about found symbolism, authorial intention and college professors is that it's the professor's job to train the students to argue for their interpretation: structure the points, provide the evidence--it's a rhetorical task, ultimately. Persuade the audience that your interpretation is plausible. What an audience of humanities professors finds plausible may be quite different from a general audience's standards. Positive feedback loops, the kind where you interact mainly with people who resemble or agree with you, can lead to wildly unrealistic views.<br /><br />Again, since I didn't see anyone recount it, I loved what I heard Tom Stoppard say about critics finding symbolism and such in his work: He said it was like being in line at Customs and they open your bags and find all sorts of contraband and summon the police, and all you can say is, "Officer, I have to admit it's there, but I don't remember packing any of it!"Speedmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08388856241747295180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-78061538450730041732010-02-25T22:36:01.740-08:002010-02-25T22:36:01.740-08:00Certain bits of this discussion remind me of that ...Certain bits of this discussion remind me of that <i>Frasier</i> episode where Martin befriends one of Frasier and Niles's favourite authors, a reclusive genuis with only one novel to his name. The boys get hold of the author's draft of his second book, read it, and pronounce it even more brilliant than his first, due to its echoes of Dante's <i>Divine Comedy</i>; the author, who had been completely unaware that his narrative structure paralleled Dante's, is disgusted with his perceived plagiarist hackery, and burns the entire manuscript, vowing never to attempt writing again.<br /><br />Judging by some of the comments here, I'm starting to wonder if this episode was based on a true story.<br /><br />I'm always bemused by the general resistance to the idea of TV shows as valid subjects for analysis, from writers who maintain they just threw something together to get a paycheque. Is it humility? Self-esteem issues, as in the <i>Frasier</i> ep? Why so resistant to being fawned over for your intellectual and/or artistic prowess (and/or utterly unintentional, coincidental brilliance)?<br /><br />Like a few others here, I was taught to leave the author out of the picture entirely when looking at a work: authorial intention/personality/beliefs/etc may or may not have influenced the finished product, but it's the text itself that's the point of examination--the text, how the text interacts with its audience, how the text informs or is informed by the society/culture that is its timeframe, how the text does or does not recall other texts, etc. <br /><br />Sure, if you're not careful, media analysis (and literary analysis, and political analysis, etc etc) can degenerate into truly, eye-rollingly impressive displays of intellectual fappery. Still...deep down, Writer-Type People...doesn't it kinda make you feel good? ;)<br /><br />CAPTCHA: "imines" - Apple's controversial first step into creating armaments for the war industry.Jayne L.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-10939314725334251442010-02-25T22:04:28.547-08:002010-02-25T22:04:28.547-08:00I agree your subconscious can build links and solv...I agree your subconscious can build links and solve problems you may be unaware of and appreciate those who go the extra mile and build stories with layered meanings. But I know people over analyze shit. <br /><br />In college we weren't allowed to make suicide movies, dripping faucet films as my professor called them. Far too boring to sit through anymore. So the challenge was laid. No one would complain if I made an action suicide film. Hah!<br /><br />My idea was to have two sides of a suicidal student's personality, the one that wanted to die and the one that wanted to live, chase each other around campus. Every shot was first person…a subconscious ode to your MASH episode? Great fun making. I was either chasing a guy with a camera in my hand or being chased and shooting over my shoulder. <br /><br />Since this was shortly after the discovery of fire, we still had to process film. In the soup something went wrong and the film had a strange shimmer throughout. My film was ruined. And, since this was college, I had procrastinated until the day before it was due and could only submit what I had.<br /><br />Apparently everyone else saw a different movie. They found it incredible I put their spirit between them! The student's SOUL was in the balance!<br /><br />I was a genius. Genius I tell you.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12777259798205782943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-30449418740889182382010-02-25T20:07:02.296-08:002010-02-25T20:07:02.296-08:00Analysis and criticism of works can change over ti...Analysis and criticism of works can change over time, so sometimes the analysis and criticism can say as much about the consumers and their socio-psycho-religio-economic epoch/world as it says about the work itself. Should we then analyze the analyses, and then analyze the analysis of the analyses? <br /><br />Oy.<br /><br />I entertained some drunk frinds of mine (well, I was drunk, too) one night by explaining that the Wizard of Oz was actually populist satire, and that Die Hard was an expression of American frustration at loss of world standing. It's fun!<br /><br />But I always thought the 'message' to MASH was that sometimes an appreciation and embrace of the absurd was the only rational response to a world gone savagely nuts. The show didn't need symbolism; its theme was played out in human stories.<br /><br />I loved that show, and I wanted to be Hawkeye Pierce. But I've grown up now, and I think I'd rather be Alan Alda.Charles H. Bryanhttp://www.charleshbryan.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-86264588867615677652010-02-25T19:37:08.034-08:002010-02-25T19:37:08.034-08:00"Annie said...
I'll remember you and how...<i>"Annie said...<br /> I'll remember you and how you responded ... and then instead of laughing at the scene the way GOD and Woody Allen intended, I'll be thinking about what a dick you were to me."</i><br />6:28 PM<br /><br /><i>"Annie said... <br />No worries, D, my memory is obviously so bad, I'm sure I won't be remembering this exchange the next time I see Annie Hall anyway."</i><br />7:02 PM<br /><br />Well make your mind! Have I scarred your enjoyment of <i>Annie Hall</i> forever, or just ruined it for 30 minutes? Sheesh! You flip-flop faster than Senator Bohner on Healthcare. Whichever position you think you gives you some high moral ground is the one you'll adopt.<br /><br /><i>YOU RUINED IT FOREVER, YOU PRICK!</i><br />or<br /><i>You're too insignificant a fly to remember --- what was I talking about?</i><br /><br />Pick a position. I'll accept that I'm a dick. It's not a new accusation, but for heaven's sake, which prick am I? Be consistant.D. McEwannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-29016162615096934792010-02-25T19:02:17.666-08:002010-02-25T19:02:17.666-08:00No worries, D, my memory is obviously so bad, I...No worries, D, my memory is obviously so bad, I'm sure I won't be remembering this exchange the next time I see Annie Hall anyway.<br /><br />And I didn't watch Annie Hall in order to remember facts but to *laugh*. <br /><br />I read Ken's blog because *I want to laugh*. <br /><br />When I DON'T want to laugh, I can always find someone like you. (Now, see, THAT was funny! Well...to me...*grins*)Anniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11372504263596883327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-25582574463739444802010-02-25T18:54:11.967-08:002010-02-25T18:54:11.967-08:00"Annie said...
You know what really pisses me...<i>"Annie said...<br />You know what really pisses me off? I won't be able to see that scene anymore and feel the same way about it. I'll remember you and how you responded"</i><br /><br />Why would you grant me all that rent-free space in your head? Should I ever watch <i>Annjie Hall</i> again, I certianly won't be giving you a thought, because I'll have dismissed this comment from memory.<br /><br />Maybe if you gave more headroom to rememebring facts, and less to remembering perceived slights (I just typed words. You supplied the mocking tone yourself), you'd remember such a "favorite scene" accurately.<br /><br />And there is no God.D, McEwannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-62422322699658109112010-02-25T18:54:09.233-08:002010-02-25T18:54:09.233-08:00Ken, yes, that would be crappy teaching. Anyone w...Ken, yes, that would be crappy teaching. Anyone who insists on their own interpretation to the extent that they would penalize students for thinking differently ought to find another profession.<br /><br />And I really appreciate your point about the difference between fleshing out a character and making overt references/allegories/etc. For my money, that's what separates good writing from tortured writing. Thanks again for this conversation.Jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09657326965491389493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-82866573461611393472010-02-25T18:46:49.467-08:002010-02-25T18:46:49.467-08:00Re: disdain for college professors: Back in colleg...Re: disdain for college professors: Back in college, one semester I took a course in literary critcism, and a course in theatrical criticism. Since the roots of both these related fields lie in Aristotle's <i>Poetics</i>, this was asensible thing to do, as both classes were studying the same book at the same time, cutting my reading load in half. <br /><br />But is also meant that I was being taught the same work by two different professors at the same time.<br /><br />You'd never know it was the same work. They had radically different interpretations of the work, its meaning, and its importance. One felt it an important work, the other felt it was out-of-date and of only academic interest, to be studied historically and then rejected.<br /><br />And not-too-slowy but very surely I came to realize that the professor who valued it was teaching me interesting and useful insights, while the "This-is-dated" professor was full of crap, didn't know what the hell he was talking about, and not-infrequently got his facts wrong as well as his theories.<br /><br />Over four years I had a number of classes with each of these men (They were number 2 and number 1 respectively in our Theater Arts Department, and that was my major), and I was directed in multiple stage productions by each. I found the former, the department's number two man, was consistently a better teacher, and a better director than the other, the head of the department, who was a major bullshit artist, not nearly as knowledgable as he pretended (I lost count of how many times I caught him out in factual errors), and was a dreadful, indulgent theater director. Also, pretty girls in his classes quickly learned that sitting up front in very short skirts got them better grades from him. (The good teacher was gay, and <i>very</i> private about it.) He was, however, good company for a stoned evening of bullshitting. By the time I left college, their positions in the department had reversed. <br /><br />Way too many professers like that lousy one is the reason people dump on college professors.D. McEwannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-5203956076807461622010-02-25T18:42:31.935-08:002010-02-25T18:42:31.935-08:00Well clearly for me there have always been message...Well clearly for me there have always been messages and morals in Cutting Confessions because a number of them and the story itself have had a huge and direct impact on my life-there are probably five life lessons and morals in the story-getting there has been very tough in that I mean taking the idea from point A to point B to point C on paper and in my mind has hardly been easy. On top of that it required learning a skill I didn't think I would ever use in any serious fashion-writing.<br /><br />The extremely frustrating part is a lot of it is for naught thus far without an agent-also, every single thing that's been done so far is me and no one else. While a number of my ideas are extremely solid as is the story itself, the fact is it would benefit with input from other more experienced writers who would know how to connect certain plot points better and to punch up existing dialogue and scenarios.<br /><br />There's no doubt in my mind that I'm now a writer and not only a writer but a writer with some pretty unusual stories that will translate well to screen and print. The problem becomes convincing others of that, especially those who ultimately control the purse strings that want to know that what they read and what they see can generate a profit and just as importantly a valued catalog item which has always been my intention for both Cutting Confessions and the TV series idea which utilizes my love and knowledge of Top 40 music and other music using the period of time when AM radio was the undisputed king of reaching an audience and how in the words of Joe Pesci narrating Casino "We had it all they gave us the keys to the kingdom and it all fell apart. It was the last time guys like us were ever given something that valuable." To take that basic idea and run with it over six seasons or more telling the story of how the consultants and business managers basically screwed the golden goose by squeezing the life out of Top 40 when the guys that really took it the highest level were the Landeckers, Lujacks, etc. of the business and how the bean counters become the very thing that in essence destroys the very thing they thought they would improve. But, naturally, over the course of those six or seven seasons or whatever it is all the creativity, good times, and top music of the era come to life. Like Mad Men, but about 70's radio with the type of quirky storylines that are over and above reality sometimes-but not all the time, because the idea is to keep it believable for the most part, that you see in Nip/Tuck for just one example.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03092805210074185421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19336675.post-43441283949697010122010-02-25T18:38:34.656-08:002010-02-25T18:38:34.656-08:00My only problem with teachers in this regard -- gi...My only problem with teachers in this regard -- giving tests based on their conjecture of meaning. Taking off points if students don't get the answers "right". Otherwise,I love teachers! <br /><br />And again, to clarify on a personal note: Yes, everything I write is designed to have meaning. And I'm always asking the question "What is this REALLY about?" If I can't answer that question I don't start writing. And within the context of the script I do assign meaning and subtext to certain things or actions -- a la Radar's teddy bear -- but more often than not they're to better inform you about the character. You try not to have a character baldly say what he's thinking, so you use behavior and certain items to fill in the blanks. <br /><br />But that's different from slipping in additional meanings and references. <br /><br />Re Post Modernism -- I have no problem with people assigning their own meaning. If you can personalize a piece of art and it speaks to you on some level that's great. We all do that with songs. Just don't mark off points because your meaning is not the same as someone else's.By Ken Levinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17305293821975250420noreply@blogger.com