Vincent Saia is.
D.C. Fontana said that when she was teaching screenwriting at AFI she knew the students who had been working on the same script for years were probably not going to become professional writers and Tom Wolf said, "It only takes six to eight weeks to write anything. The rest of the time you're just dancing around the project." Do you also feel the ability to write quickly and on demand necessarily separates the professional writer from the amateur?
I agree with William Goldman. Writers should go at their own speed but write as much and as quickly as they can. The danger of going too slow is you tend to obsess and try to make every word perfect, which results in stilted scripts. But if you go too fast you miss things.
The distinction between professional and amateur has more to do with the ability to be creative on demand.
From John Schrank:
I really like the two posts on wording and the importance of setup! In Dick Cavett's first book, after some very interesting sections about writing for other comedians, he tells about some of the material he wrote for his own act. He says the right wording is almost always the way it comes to you first. Tweaking it sometimes weakens it.
Have you found that to be true? His major example was his joke about wedding that was done on the cheap. "I don't know much about caviar, but I do know you're not supposed to get pictures of ballplayers with it." Then he wondered if "cards" was better than "pictures"... or if there needed to be some reference to trading cards in the line before to set it up. He finally decided it was good the way it was.
I disagree with him. Often times the first thought is the most obvious. When David Isaacs and I are writing we often bat around lines back and forth until truly, we can’t remember who came up with it.
However a caveat (to Cavett): In the writers room if someone pitches a joke and everyone laughs it goes in exactly as pitched. Even if it had a funky construction, if it got a laugh it goes in untouched.
To fool with those lines is when you start to over-analyze and kill the joke.
But there is value to tweaking. We’re not Mozart.
Joseph Scarbrough asks:
You've written before about "Good-bye, Radar" originally being written as a single episode to close Season 7, but it was the network that insisted it a two-parter for sweeps, and that when you and David Isaacs re-wrote it as such, you added the subplot about the generator to pad it out with filler for the extra time. So, does that mean everything else about your original script for the episode was still the same? Radar meeting Patty Haven? The circumstance of Uncle Ed passing away? The sudden arrival of wounded canceling Radar's farewell party?
Yes, the whole Radar storyline was in place the end of season 7.
We may have added a couple of new steps to go along with the generator story (which was there for padding), but after Henry’s death we wanted a character to leave and have a happy ending. Giving Radar a possible love interest seemed interesting and showed a side of him we’ve never seen.
The overall theme was his maturity and we felt he now was ready to have a real relationship. Leaving his teddy bear behind was also our idea. It seemed the perfect symbol for his having grown up.
And finally, from JS:
Why when shows get desperate they bring in a baby? It never works. It is the sign of death.
Yep and amen. An argument can be made that a baby opens up a whole new vein of stories, but especially for a romantic comedy, it forces you to put the romance on the back burner while your couple is managing an infant. And those stories are just not as fun and interesting in my opinion.
However, if it’s a supporting character, like say Frasier then the baby really doesn’t alter the series. Frasier’s bar habits didn’t change (although they should have).
A REMINDER: For the next two weeks I am working on a big project and will not have as much internet access as I normally do. So it will take longer to moderate comments. Hang in there and continue to comment and ask Friday Questions. I will get to them eventually. Thanks much. Ken
The other option with a baby, which several sitcoms took in the late '90s and thereafter, was to ignore the kid a lot. I told my wife I wanted to find the day care Avery Brown, Mabel Buchman, and Emma Geller-Green went to; theirs were apparently open 24 hours, while ours charged $5/minute if we missed closing time.
ReplyDeleteNot just bringing in a baby, but bringing in a younger kid never seems to work either. Cousin Pam on Cosby, Cousin Oliver on Brady Bunch, etc.
ReplyDeleteTwo comments, unrelated to each other:
ReplyDelete1) I saw "Good-Bye Radar" when it first aired. I was nine years old. My family was very dysfunctional and unhappy, but one thing we all enjoyed together: we watched MASH. I remember that episode vividly, especially the second part - the unexpected casualties arriving, Radar tasting his good-bye cake and grimacing, Hawkeye and Radar saluting each other through the OR door window, and the teddy bear left behind. I'm only writing this to let you know how deep and profound that episode was to me, even as a child. You made an impact, and that is a fond memory of my childhood.
2) Concerning this quote: "But there is value to tweaking. We’re not Mozart." It might surprise you to know that Mozart wasn't Mozart either. That is, although he was a genius, he still wrote sketches and drafts of his compositions, and re-worked his pieces. The idea of Mozart writing everything fully-formed from his head is a myth that took hold in the 19th century. Mozart was romanticized as a god-like figure. (The play/movie Amadeus portrays Mozart's compositional process this way.) But historical scholarship shows that he often experimented before finishing his work. He sometimes wrote in snippets, and then built up the material while sitting at his keyboard. So be encouraged! You're a lot more like Mozart than you may think.
The later "Thin Man" films unfortunately fell prey to this (as well as to the cloying mindset of Louis B. Mayer) after Nick Jr. arrived on the scene...and was played by Dean Stockwell in 1947's series finale, "Song Of The Thin Man." The Charleses already had a surrogate child in Asta, so why add a human version?
ReplyDeleteMany years ago I called it, when a TV show added a child/children to it later in its run, the “Cute Kid Syndrome”. I don’t know if that’s original but that’s what I called it.
ReplyDeleteRegarding babies in sitcoms, I have to argue that "I LOVE LUCY" used this storyline brilliantly and broke the mold. Granted, this is the variable rather than the norm but it has to be said!
ReplyDeleteYou probably know the Bob Newhart story, where he said he did not want children in his series or the plot would become how dumb daddy was. The writers came up with a plotline where Emily would be pregnant, and he said it was a really funny script, but he had a question for them: "Who's going to play Bob?"
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of Emma, I forgot Rachel was pregnant on "Friends" so those reruns took me by complete surprise!
ReplyDeleteHave you been ever given some sort of mementos from the shows you were working on?
ReplyDeleteYou know something that is handed out to all cast and crew as an appreciation by the networks or the creators / producers after a successful season.
Don't tease! Is the project a movie or TV show?
ReplyDeleteApparently Radar and Patty didn't last though . . . I may have this information incorrect, but from what I remember reading, they got married on AFTERMASH, but only after Radar found her fooling around with another man . . . and W*A*L*T*E*R apparently explains that they got divorced after she fools around with yet another man on their honeymoon!
ReplyDeleteWhatever the big project is, congrats on the gig.
ReplyDeleteThe massive public interest in the I LOVE LUCY pregnancy storyline started the ball rolling for the many later shows who tried to repeat the "baby" thread to much lesser success, though it may have been so long ago that the scripters now resorting to it may not remember where the idea started.
ReplyDeleteIt's not just babies that cause problems for sitcom stories, but children in general. THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW seemed to deal with this by just pretending Richie didn't exist in several episodes. For instance in "The Redcoats are Coming" when Rob agrees to hide a Beatle-like duo in his home overnight, Richie is simply not there. No mention of him being away at scout camp or anything like that. It would have been easy enough to explain his absence with one line; I always wondered why they didn't do it.
ReplyDeleteThey weren't a Beatles like duo. They were The Redcoats, aka, Chad & Jeremy, folk singers, who had a hit with Yesterday's Gone.
DeleteAside from the Baby gimmick, there is this pointed comment from 1975:
ReplyDelete"Next week, 'The National Lampoon Radio Hour' will pretend to move to *California*!"
Are you going to eventually tell us about your big project.
ReplyDeleteInterestingly, the contemporary series, The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, has been criticized precisely because the main character ignores her kids a lot.
ReplyDeleteI do know that "Goodbye Radar" was originally written for the end of season 7 of MASH, but the network decided it would be a better ratings grabber to save it for the next season.
ReplyDeleteWas Gary Burghoff really as pissed off as he seemed to be during this two-part episode? Unlike before, he looks all of his 36-some years, clearly no teenager from Iowa, and like he wants to get it over with and get the fuck out of there. Any notable tension on the set over this?
Still a brilliant episode. Season 8 is where MASH should have retired with a nearly perfect record.
"Was Gary Burghoff really as pissed off as he seemed to be during this two-part episode? Unlike before, he looks all of his 36-some years, clearly no teenager from Iowa, and like he wants to get it over with and get the fuck out of there."
DeleteTom Simon thought this was definitely the case:
https://bondwine.com/2015/09/13/goodbye-radar-part-2/
Was Jane Leeves' real-life pregnancy in season 8 of FRASIER, used comically as Daphne having an eating disorder, a deliberate wink to the silly way Shelley Long's pregnancy was covered up in season 3 of CHEERS? Obviously, it wasn't meant to fool anyone, but was it an homage?
ReplyDeleteThomas Harris, JRR Tolkien and George RR Martin are amazed to learn from Tom Wolfe are amazed to learn they are dancers and not writers.
ReplyDeleteIs this the "The Right Stuff" Tom Wolfe or the "Look Homeward Angel" Tom Wolfe? Oh wait. Wolfe's first draft of "Look Homeward Angel" was 1100 pages long. He didn't knock that out in 8 weeks. Must be the other one, the hack "journalist".
Ironically, most sitcom babies are Taurus or Gemini because they're timed for the season finally during May sweeps. I'm not a big believer in astrology, yet I have to wonder if the traits of any given sign are taken into consideration when writing for those characters.
ReplyDeleteGlenn, To add to what you said, "Seven" on "Married with Children" is another example.
The thing that struck me most about the "Good-bye, Radar" episode was Gary Burghoff's hair line. Radar was almost always seen wearing his cap. But, when you did see his hair he didn't show that much forehead. I've always found it interesting that the primary way they showed that Radar had aged was to show him balding. I guess sitcoms will do that to a person.
Completing a project quickly is a good indicator of how serious you are as a writer. I've often said that the disciplined are usually more successful than the talented.
I have stacks of half written scripts, sketches, plays, etc. laying around that may never be completed. Not because they're not good or don't have potential, but because I simply don't have the willpower to sit down and finish and/or rewrite a piece. I guess I'm just not passionate enough about writing to be a professional.
Finally, I agree with Cavett. More often than not the initial wording is the best. I can rewrite something a dozen times and then say, I like the first way better. I believe Ken alluded to this in a previous blog.
Once again I apologize for the length of this post.
M.B.
Thanks for answering another one of my questions, Ken.
ReplyDeleteAlan Alda pulled Hawkeye -- and eventually the whole series -- in a direction more in tune with his own personality. Fortunately, he was intelligent and capable and the show survived. Are there cases when an actor becomes too possessive/protective of his/her character or the series? On the flip side, are there times when writers want an actor to get more involved beyond just showing up and giving a performance?
ReplyDeleteOn "McMillan and Wife," after Susan St. James left the series, the baby her character had had ceased to exist. The remaining 6 episodes of the series never mentioned whether the child had died in the plane crash along with Sally. The kid was never mentioned again at all.
ReplyDeleteThe news is reporting that Trump seriously discussed with his team the idea of buying Greenland. He was told it belongs to Denmark and isn't for sale.
ReplyDeleteGenuine question for Republicans. At what point will you accept that this guy meets the criteria set out in the Constitution of being mentally unfit to hold the office of president of the United States?
Not only is introducing a baby a bad idea, marrying off a character is, in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteI grew up watching daytime soap operas, where concealing pregnancies was an art.
ReplyDeleteIf the ingenue du jour was expecting at a time when her character would not have been, the directors, stage managers, and cameramen had all kinds of camera angles and prop placements they could use to hide the baby bumps.
During the run of 30 Rock, Jane Krakowski and Tina Fey both became pregnant (at different times).
I've head that Ms. Krakowski, who came up in the soaps, shared many of the staging tricks she'd seen with the 30 Rock crew, which helped keep the show on schedule both times.
So the story goes, anyway …
I tend to agree with Frank Beans - Gary used his regular voice only in his last episode, instead of his usual softer, higher, Radar voice.
ReplyDeleteAlways wondered if that huge cake was a prop or really used during a goodbye party for Gary. (Friday question?)
I think the cast took his brimmed hat (thus showing Gary's receding hairline), had it mounted, and all signed the display before giving it to him as a farewell gift. I read this online, so it must be true, right? I'd never heard anyone else who had previously planned on leaving the show getting a farewell gift, but I hope they did!
@Mike Doran, the meta version of that I just saw in Into the Woods. Emily Blunt's character is unable to conceive a child, and Emily herself was pregnant during the filming.
ReplyDeleteWhich is why, Cap'n Bob, I guess "Rhoda" was doomed from the start...
ReplyDeleteI think anyone should take Goldman's and Cavett's (and Ken's!) advice and tweak it to their own situation. These three are comedy/screenwriting legends; what works for them might not work for someone toiling away on a spec script at Starbucks. For me, personally, I've found that Cavett's advice was 90 percent -- often the structure/idea/concept are there right away. But if I change just one or two words to something similar, it pops. Here's something you can all debate: yesterday I wrote a line that initially ended "without being embarrassed." A quick change to "without feeling self-conscious" made it much better.
ReplyDeleteMight be a bit of a too personal question, but thought I would ask.
ReplyDeleteAt the end of MASH are big part of the story is dealing with him and BJ probably never seeing each other again, after their time together.
And BJs difficulty with saying good bye.
I just wondered after a long running series like MASH, Cheers, and Frasier, especially given in interviews everyone seems to get on with each other, how much people do still meet up when in town etc, cast and crew etc.
Social rather than organised reuinions etc.
I have had a couple of jobs that were quite long term and still do, so I guess it is the same.
As I say, might be too personal to answer.
Your first question about how quickly to write something remindered me of a chapter in Barbara Tuchman's "Practicing History" where she writes about having to decide to stop researching and start writing.
ReplyDeleteSomething I've wondered about "Goodbye, Radar" for a long time was how you happened to choose Lancaster, MO, as Patty's hometown. Right after I saw the show for the first time I looked up the town in my parents' road atlas to see if it really existed or was made up for the show. I was happy to see that Lancaster did indeed exist as the seat of a Missouri county that bordered Iowa. Did you just find it on a map, or was Lancaster significant to a cast or crew member?
ReplyDeleteIf you could develop a sitcom today and had total carte blanche, what would be your dream team? Network, stars, supporting actors, writing room and production team?
ReplyDelete