Wow. Into October already. Where has the quarantine time gone?
Phil starts us off:
The MTM show spun off no less than three shows, all reasonably successful (Lou Grant, Rhoda, Phyllis). Do you think this reflects the good genes those characters inherited from the The MTM Show? Or were those shows so different from MTM that they were, in effect, whole new creations?
They were mostly worthy of spin-offs but remember, back then spin-offs were the rage – the way reboots were a few seasons ago. Between the Norman Lear shows, MTM shows, and Garry Marshall/Paramount shows there must’ve been twenty spin-offs or more.
So all you needed was a popular supporting character on a hit show and you were off to the races.
As for the MTM spin-offs, this is just my opinion but none of them were nearly as good as THE MARY TYLER MOORE SHOW. RHODA married too quickly in its first season and became a series of course corrections the rest of the run. PHYLLIS was snake-bitten. One of the stars was murdered coming out of a restaurant in Venice. The funniest character on the show died (although she was probably in her 90’s), and the second (and final) season they changed the whole premise. LOU GRANT became a drama. That was an excellent show but Lou Grant wasn’t Lou Grant.
And speaking of spin-offs, Kyle Burress wonders:
How soon was it after knowing Cheers was coming to an end that a spinoff (Frasier) was in development? Were there other characters considered and how did it ultimately come down to Frasier?
Kelsey Grammer had a series commitment for 13 episodes upon completion of CHEERS. But at the time the deal was signed it was not specified that he would play FRASIER. Another premise was originally developed for him before he agreed to play Frasier Crane.
For the real inside story, check out my podcast episode with series co-creator David Lee. You can find it here.
NBC also wanted to spin-off Norm & Cliff but that never materialized. And there was THE TORTELLIS, spinning off Carla's ex-husband Nick. That was short-lived.
From Brian Phillips:
I just finished watching a movie that put all of the credits, save the titles, at the end as opposed to the beginning. I understand that from an artistic standpoint, you can set up your universe faster, etc., but from a practical standpoint, if I wrote a movie, I'd rather it be out front first, with the bulk of the titles at the end.
What is your preference?
The beginning because when they appear at the end, other the first few credits (director, producer, writer, star) everyone in the audience bails.
If the credits are in the beginning, people actually see them.
And finally, from Michael:
I know you were a producer on CHEERS the first season and then left to work on other shows. When you returned to CHEERS in later seasons as a writer, were you and David full-time staff writers involved with the show every week or was it on a free-lance basis?
We were on staff but not exclusive to the show. We consulted a day a week so were involved with all scripts. We also wrote numerous episodes. And we had an office and assistant. But we were able to pursue other projects like developing pilots, consulting on other shows (notably WINGS for me), and writing movies.
It was the best of both worlds. Another reason why I so love CHEERS.
What’s your Friday Question? Stay safe. Save our country.
I'm feeling good today for some reason. :-D
ReplyDeleteFriday Question
One of my favorite Frasier moments is in Radio Wars when Martin asks how often does he get to hear his son on the radio and an indignant Frasier replies "I'M ON THE RADIO EVERY DAY!" I read that that was the very first Frasier script by Sam Johnson and Chris Marcil. Reading more about them, I saw that they're a long time writing duo just like you and David. Are you all still friends from your Frasier days, and will you get them on your podcast?
On the subject of credits, I've always liked what Warners did with so many of its pre-Code, early '30s films -- open by showing a few seconds of each notable character with their on-screen name, e.g., "Joan Blondell as Nancy." Why don't more movies do that?
ReplyDeleteGood morning, Ken. I was a passing friend of Richard Castellano (Clemenza). Recently I saw opening credits of “Joe & Sons”, Richard’s short-lived series and saw your’s and David’s nameS in the credits. I can’t recall you ever talking about it. I liked Richard but he could be tough. Any stories?
ReplyDeleteIf Cheers had done a spin-off series with Donna McKechnie as Sam's ex-wife, I'd've watched that. I'd watch Donna McKechnie in just about anything.
ReplyDeleteIn many '30s movies, I noticed that the names of cast members were displayed along with their close-up scenes in the beginning credits. Then the studios displayed the cast list in a row during the one page of the beginning credits and then again at the end. I think starting with the '50s, credits previously listed on one whole page began to separate individually like a separate one for music, costumes, editor, etc. That made the time from credits to beginning take longer so by the mid-'70s, they started to move more of the technical credits from the beginning to the end, usually after the cast list. And that eventually led to many movies showing only the title at the beginning and putting everything else at the end these days. I think I like it better when the actors, writer, producer, and director at the beginning as opposed to the end...
ReplyDeleteJust a heads up for fans of good TV sitcoms...
ReplyDeleteI saw this midweek, and it's done after tonight, but Decades in their overnights has "Bob", Bob Newhart's next to last series, and Gary David Goldberg's brilliant "Brooklyn Bridge.".
I know it's probably an ownership issue, but I wish Brooklyn Bridge were to come out on DVD. One of the best series ever.
And the Bob series isn't bad. I read where the CBS really messed with it, but even the next to last episode (which ran this morning) was well done, with national treasure Betty White singing at the piano, and Dick Martin, Jere Burns. Would love to see more of these.
THE BEVERLY HILLBILLIES spun off PETTICOAT JUNCTION, which itself spun off GREEN ACRES. While THE BEVERLY HILLBILLIES and GREEN ACRES both have enjoyed enduring lives in syndication afterwards, it seems to me that PETTICOAT JUNCTION ended up being treated like the red-headed stepchild of the three: I hardly ever see it in reruns on any channel dedicated to classic TV shows, except for maybe MeTV, but even then, they seemed to relegate it to a dead-air timeslot.
ReplyDeleteThe last two episodes of GREEN ACRES were also back-door pilots for two additional spin-offs that never came to fruition due to the Rural Purge: one of which was about a Hawaiian resort where the manager's free-spirited, hippie teenaged daughter apparently had free run of the place; the other about Oliver's ditzy blonde secretary back in New York and her family.
Petticoat Junction wasn't technically a spin-off, but, it did crossover with The Hillbillies for a few episodes.
DeleteThere was a relatively brief period in which networks would edit movies’ opening titles and place them at the end.
ReplyDeleteSo, every movie would have a totally cold opening (as many theatrical films now do), but the end would be the Cowboy hero kissing his horse, for instance, followed by the credits over a lengthy shot of the hero riding into the town we had just spent the last two hours watching him save from the evil cattle baron.
No Friday question, just my online impression of Ted Baxter
ReplyDeleteLoooooouuuuuuu...
If you're talking about Judith Lowry, [funniest character in the show] she was in here 80s when she died. But what's a couple of decades when you get that far ahead in life?
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting that Lear's spinoff record seems to have been the best, because All in the Family begat The Jeffersons (I know that one is special to Ken), as well as Maude, which in turn begat Good Times. All successful, at least in the ratings, though Good Times became a disaster behind the scenes.
ReplyDeleteHeads up for Frasier cast reunion live streaming tomorrow evening on YouTube at 8pm ET!
ReplyDeletehttps://youtu.be/srJLtdQmsgM
Interesting fact about "Rhoda" - one of the problems was Valerie Harper's lack of chemistry with her boyfriend/husband played by David Groh. But Groh was the backup choice to play Joe. The first choice was a New York actor who couldn't get out of the Broadway show he was doing at the time. That actor was Judd Hirsch.
ReplyDeleteCan you imagine how much better the chemistry and show would have been with Judd Hirsch as Rhoda's love interest?
Hirsch appeared as one of Harper's love interests in an episode of "Rhoda" called "The Weekend," aired Nov. 13, 1977.
DeleteI'm a credit watcher, but one thing about modern movies is that they now list everyone involved in the production, down to the guy who walked the production assistants' dogs. A modern end-credit crawl on a movie is longer than some old entire old movies. No wonder most of the audience heads home when the narrative is done.
ReplyDeleteFYI, Decades TV is showing CHEERS this weekend, all weekend, all the time!
ReplyDeleteWhen I was in high school my first real job was as a busboy at the commissary on the CBS Radford lot where all the MTM shows were shot. In all the time I worked there I didn't see a single star. They usually had one their "people" pick up their meals. The only exception was that one day Cloris Leachman came in. Not to eat, but to use our phone. I don't have any interesting stories about her other than to say, you know how people look different without make-up...?
ReplyDeleteFollow up to Ken's EMMY© blog from 9/21. "Schitt's Creek" started in syndication on Monday. Of course, after all the hype I had to watch it. As of yet I haven't seen anything special or unique. Standard characters, predictable, telegraphed punchlines and a lot of quirky for the sake of quirky. Maybe it was just a slow starter and it got better as the series progressed. Granted, this is only the first week, but so far I'm not impressed.
Re:Benson, DECADES is also going to start running "TAXI" and "CHEERS."
Speaking of "CHEERS," I saw some irresistible "click bait" last night. CHEERS' Best Norm jokes. Ken and David gave their favorites. I was surprised.
M.B.
The first season is meh, but it pucks up in the 3rd season. Keep in mind that it is a Canadian show, made for the CBC, so some of the comic sensibilities might be lost on Americans.
DeleteI never knew they wanted Judd Hirsch for Rhoda. But, assuming the show would have been more successful as a result, it might have lasted longer than four seasons and might have made him unavailable for Taxi.
ReplyDeleteI first saw Hirsch in the TV movie The Law, which led to a brief miniseries. Pretty intense legal drama, as I recall. (It would have been made not long after the Rhoda pilot.)
In the theaters, I watch the credits until they finish with the cast list. Unless it's something like the "Cannonball Run" movies, where they put bloopers during the credits. At home, I sit through the entire thing, because I'm not going anywhere.
ReplyDelete"Married to the Mob" placed deleted scenes during the end credits, most of them wordless continuity shots.
A Friday Question: What's the policy of alcohol consumption on the set, by a character in a fiction show or panelists on talk/game shows? I thought I've read that American studios couldn't serve booze on sets, and scenes set in bars would use apple juice in lieu of beer or scotch. However, I've heard that the classic and current (Alec Baldwin-hosted) "Match Game" gives the celebrities a drink to liven up the atmosphere, and Graham Norton in the U.K. has the booze in front of the guests as soon as they sit down.
MAD Magazine did a bit around 1985 or so called "Spinoffs that never made it", and one I remember was a show called "Cliff And Normie" that was supposed to take place in a rehab center, where they are treated for alcoholism and mental derangement. Probably wouldn't have lasted much longer than THE TORTELLIS, but not a bad idea.
ReplyDeleteAnother one I recall was "Kate And Nobody" with a depressed looking cartoon Susan St. James. They sure had dark sarcastic wit.
@James Seriously! TV shows have a similar problem with their opening credits, you've got umpteen different producer credits (a hundred executive producers, a thousand co-executive producers, individual producers, supervising producers, line producers, creative producers, and then a separate "Produced By" credit). Ken did explain on his blog once before that more often than not, all of those indivial "producer" credits are actually given to the writers just to make them happy.
ReplyDeleteQuestion of the Frasier spin off.
ReplyDeleteDuring Cheers when Frasier spoke of his parents they were presented as "professional" medical people that cyltivated Frasiers "good" and elite perceptions.
On the spin off his father becomes an everyman Cop who drinks beer and loves sports.
Any issues with redefinition?
Bob was created and produced by Ken’s Cheers colleagues, Cheri and Bill Steinkellner. They were the showrunners for seasons 7-10. I thought there was a decline in consistency when they took over from David Angell/Peter Casey/David Lee.
ReplyDeleteIt’s kinda sad I know the details of this, but Petticoat Junction actually wasn’t a spinoff of Beverly Hillbillies, even though they were both from the same creator, Paul Henning. Bea Benaderet, who played Cousin Pearl on Hillbillies, played a different character on PJ. Green Acres did spin off from PJ. But an early episode of Green Acres had the townspeople doing a community theater production of their favorite TV show - The Beverly Hillbillies! So PJ and GA were not in the Hillbillies universe, originally.
Later on, when Bea Benaderet died, they started doing crossovers between the three series to prop up the faltering Petticoat Junction. Now, they were in the same universe.
PJ would have done better in syndication if the original syndication package included the first two - and best - seasons. Instead, the syndicator didn’t include them, because they were in B&W. This eliminated nearly half of Benaderet’s time on the show from the syndication package, and the show was just awful without her. MeTV does have all of the episodes and it’s worth checking out those early seasons.
@ Mike Bloodworth: "you know how people look different without make-up...?" Did you spot her role as one of Chernobog's handmaids in AMERICAN GODS? I'd say she brought it.
ReplyDeleteFriday Question:
ReplyDeleteLately we've watched a few shows where the first year wasn't all that good but improved greatly over the second and subsequent years. The changes were mainly in the tone of the show, they became funnier or quirkier for example. No change in the cast.
Was that because they didn't think the show through enough before they started out? Or they saw something in the actors they hadn't expected (and would that mean they didn't cast correctly originally)? Or the writer's never grasped the concept out of the gate? Finally, is it that hard to change the tone or direction in the middle of the first year or is that something that has to happen over the hiatus after the season is done?
All shows evolve, of course, but these were something more than the normal expected evolution.
Speaking of "Petticoat Junction", a gentleman on YouTube took the first four episodes of the series, which were a continuing story, edited them together with a few tweaks, and created "Petticoat Junction: The Movie".
ReplyDeleteI never cared for the show. But somehow I stumbled across this one night and ended up watching the whole thing and really enjoying it! The guy who put it together did a great job!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7eQPm5e-lE
@ Mike Bloodworth
ReplyDelete“I didn't see a single star. They usually had one their "people" pick up their meals. The only exception was that one day Cloris Leachman came in. Not to eat, but to use our phone. I don't have any interesting stories about her other than to say, you know how people look different without make-up...?”
One reason stars may have skipped the commissary -
besides wanting to avoid being distracted by
favor-askers & novice scriptwriters -
was the desire to bypass being being stared at and
subsequently blabbed about decades later.
I like credits at the end of the movie (or TV show). When we start the movie, we know what we’ve decided to watch (in the theatre or on video). It's only at the end, when we want to know who played which character, that credits matter.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, if all the credits are at the beginning, the creators get to control what images and audio they send the audience away with.
-- Damian
I can't remember what movie it was but I was watching it in a theater and, no joke, 18 minutes into the damn thing opening credits were still popping up. Annoying as hell!
ReplyDeleteYEMKIMI, I remember Once Upon a Time in the West having beginning credits that long...
ReplyDeleteGreen Acres actually predates the other two series by several years, because it was first a summer radio show called "Granby's Green Acres" starring Gale Gordon and Bea Benederet in a sort of "Egg and I" sitcom. The character names were much the same but the actors (many familiar names) and relationships were very different. It was not at all a wild, surreal farce.
ReplyDeleteEven though Paul Henning was executive producer and there were crossover characters, Green Acres was really not his project as much as it belonged to Jay Sommers and Dick Chevillat, who started both the radio and TV shows, which is why it was somewhat different from Petticoat Junction and Beverly Hillbillies.
It has also gained a more substantial and loyal following. It did not run as long and has probably been more successful on video. It's strangeness has probably not dated it. There may also be more ownership rights issues with the other two shows, as well as music rights (lots of singing on PJ) that have always made home video difficult. And pften when shows have extremely long runs, each successive season makes less money with DVD season release, as was the case even with the Mary Tyler Moore Show.
BTW, The Yogi Bear Show was a spinoff of The Huckleberry Hound Show and The Pebbles and Bamm-Bamm Show was a spinoff of The Flintstones. Hanna-Barbera wanted to spin off Elroy and Judy Jetson but CBS asked them to throw in the Partridge Family instead and that's why we got "Partridge Family 2020 A.D." (talk about a prophetic title).
Best opening -- and truest -- credits for a fairly recent movie, from "Deadpool."
ReplyDelete(Note "Written by The Real Heroes Here")
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyhgHO4-QRI&pbjreload=101
@mark
ReplyDeleteI just watched the last (unaired) episode of Bob and so help me, with maybe one or two exceptions, it's better than anything on TV in the past five years. Lots of laugh out loud moments and brilliant writing. If the Steinkellners and Phoef Sutton read this blog, what a gem this show was.
Jay Sommers served as Seasons 2-3 producer on "Petticoat Junction", and Dick Chevillat was one of the writers. Season 3 was concurrent with the first season of "Green Acres" but a lot of the surrealism of that series really starts bubbling up in S2 of Petticoat, including Fred Ziffel's treatment of Arnold as one of the family. It makes Season 2 a good intro to the crazier themes that Sommers and Chevillat would later explore.
ReplyDeleteThe actual reason the credits were moved to the end of the film is because beginning in the 1970s, theatres began switching from reel-to-reel projectors to platters, in which the entire print was spliced into one gigantic loop like an 8-track tape (remember those?). The problem was that it put enormous tension on the end of the film, resulting in it often getting chewed up as it passed through the gate. So the credits were moved to the end, because it wouldn't matter if some of that footage was lost. With the advent of digital projection, they COULD be moved back to the beginning, but the kids today have no patience and want the film to start LIKE NOW!!!
ReplyDeleteI've often said that if you wanted to kill a bunch of millennials, lock them in a theatre with a gun and start showing ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST. They'll all shoot themselves long before Leone's name popped up. :-)
Once Upon a time in the West's titles are two hours 45 min long. The actual title isn't onscreen till the gunsmoke clears at the end.... Leone intended for the three gunmen at the opening to be Eastwood, Van Cleef, Wallach.
ReplyDelete@Liggie I've seen panelists on the current "Match Game" drink wine, but I've heard the stories about how in the 70s, the post-lunch tapings were a lot looser, if you catch my drift.
ReplyDeleteCount me in the camp of those who like cast and "above-the-line" credits at the beginning of the movie, although I've gotten used to just the title upfront, then the full cast list after the final scene. However, I miss the days where the names simply appear on screen for a couple seconds. No "wipes" or transitions. I don't need a bunch of over-the-top graphics that are liable to give me vertigo.
Greg E. made a typo! Not "The Partridge Family 2020 AD": https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071030.
ReplyDeleteSigned,
The Pedant
It seemed MTM had a magic touch with new character shows more than re-occurring ones. Hill Street Blues, The Bob Newhart Show, WKRP etc all did better than Rhoda, Phyllis (which I loved)... and while The Betty White Show wasn't about Sue Anne Nivens, it was one of those shows where the potential was great but there was just something missing. The one show MTM did that I really loved and didn't last long was The Tony Randall Show... the whole Mario Lanza thing made me laugh uncontrollably -- being a 12 year old who knew who Mario Lanza was likely put me in the quirky department, so there's the explanation. I also enjoyed Barnard Hughes' series Doc, another MTM production.
ReplyDeleteOne more reason why I prefer credits in the beginning: Too often I'll see an actor who looks familiar but I can't remember his name. I struggle to recall it, to the point that it takes me out of the movie. Had his name appeared upfront, this wouldn't have been a problem.
ReplyDelete