It’s from Daniel:
You included Cheers in your dream lineup, but said you'd have to find a way to squeeze Frasier into it. I know this is nitpicking since you obviously love both shows, but do you consider Cheers to be the better of the two series? Even if only slightly? And, if so, why?
I loved them both when they originally aired, but I think Frasier has aged much better than Cheers. Not that there's anything wrong with Cheers (I still like it), but Frasier has a structural precision to most of its episodes that continues to be astounding. Every script is like an exquisitely made Swiss watch. (I feel okay saying this since you wrote for both series)
Well, first of all it’s a very hard "Sophie's" choice. Besides the very unique “Point of View” episode of MASH that we wrote, if I had to choose one single episode as our very best I would choose “Room Service” from FRASIER. If I had to choose the best episode I ever directed, it would be “Roz and the Schnoz” from FRASIER. So my pride on being associated with that show is enormous.
Where CHEERS has the edge for me is more personal and emotional. I was with CHEERS from the pilot and stayed with the show for nine years. I was with FRASIER on and off for six.
That first season of CHEERS was really a bonding experience. Everyone involved was all around the same age and even though our ratings were terrible we all felt we were part of something special.
David Isaacs and I had just come from three years of development hell and the chance to go back on a show of this quality was like someone throwing us a lifesaver.
There were not a lot of great sitcoms at that point in time. In fact, there was lots of speculation that sitcoms were dead and soon to become extinct. Established sitcom writers were scrambling and writing one hour light drama specs. Most of the sitcoms that were on the air then were not very good. So to get on a show I really loved was a godsend.
I remember one rewrite night sitting in the room with Glen & Les Charles, my partner, and the great David Lloyd and thinking, “Wow. Just how lucky am I?”
We loved working with the Charles Brothers and Jim Burrows and believe me, it was an absolute masterclass in showrunning.
I also really enjoyed the setting. As a huge sports fan, a sports bar was right up my alley. I loved writing a romantic relationship and could certainly identify with the barflies.
I loved all the characters. We wrote 40 episodes of CHEERS and never got tired of it. Trust me, that’s rare. We could always find new ways for the characters to surprise us.
And if I’m being honest, I always wanted to win an Emmy and CHEERS allowed me to achieve that.
So although CHEERS and FRASIER are both exceptional shows (and how lucky am I to have worked on both?), I would have to give the slight nod to CHEERS. Also, I get more residuals from CHEERS.
And this post is an great example of why I come here every day. Thank you for the personal insight. (And those episodes of Frasier you cited are two of the funniest half hours of television ever created.)
ReplyDeleteWhile I think that "Frasier" is one of the BEST executed shows I've seen (I still show folks clips of the Valentine's Day Niles ironing scene to illustrate superb precision and competency), at the end of the day, I think that "Cheers" simply had a good bit more "heart" that keeps me coming back to it more than "Frasier". While I think that Frasier was a more consistent show overall, it didn't have as many great emotional beats such as the one with Coach's daughter, Frasier and Lilith struggling as young parents, and Sam's character growth. Both had plenty of great laughs, but I feel like I "felt" more watching "Cheers".
ReplyDeleteI'm in the minority I believe but . . . I've never loved FRASIER.
ReplyDeleteThe Frasier character trying to fit in with a bunch of working class schlubs at a bar is a far more interesting premise to me than the FRASIER TV show plot. I find David Hyde too much; don't buy the father-son dynamic; don't like any of the side characters. Go figure. Frasier of FRASIER is a less likable guy.
You get a very pleasing mix of highish and lowish brow on CHEERS and the characters are just so much more likeable.
For a minute there, Ken, I thought this was going to be a blog about the not-yet-made sequel to KENNY & CO.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074739/
Room Service is my favorite Frasier too.
ReplyDeleteAre you a fan of spoof/parody movies (Airplane!, Naked Gun), would you ever write one and like to see them come back?
ReplyDeleteMy favourite FRASIER was the one where Niles is dressed as Jesus Christ. I think it was a holiday episode. I laughed so much watching that one that I teared up.
ReplyDeleteChris Bernard, one of the best Friday questions I've seen here.
ReplyDeleteBebe Neuwirth & David Hyde Pierce were guests a week or so ago on ABC's Good Morning America and their introduction included a clip from the ROOM SERVICE episode.
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ReplyDeleteI'm no kind of barfly, but passing some time with the mugs at Cheers would be fine with me - not so sure about "identifying" with any of them.
My poor self-education doesn't overlap with the Crane shrinks - ditto.
A romp with any of the regular ladies from either show fits any number of fantasies - though like Sam Malone once said, Carla may well be "too much woman".
And like Burrows surmised during his podcast with Ken, I'm in "both halves" - wanting to sleep with and KILL Diane - though not at the same time.
It's such a difficult choice. Each show is great, but in different ways. "Cheers" was the most consistently funny. It was never pee your pants funny, yet I can't think of an episode I didn't like. Whereas "Frasier" had way more laugh out loud moments. But it was also very repetitive in plot lines. e.g. One of the guys is mistaken to be gay. Or Fraiser's pathetic love life. Or Niles pining for Daphne. Currently, I really don't watch either show in syndication unless I happen to catch a particular episode. The above mentioned "Room Service" is one I'll watch every time. But that has as much to do with the overall hotness of Bebe Neuwirth as it does the humor. It's a coin toss.
ReplyDeleteM.B.
No one's asking, but my vote would be for Cheers as well. For one main reason: Shelley Long. She carried that show on her back especially the first season. And unlike the other main characters, she had all of Diane's many competing facets nailed from her first minute on screen: Smart, sexy, anxious, determined, naive, irritating, compassionate...and of course funny. All at the same time. Just amazing.
ReplyDeleteHere's a potential Friday question for you. Last night in a dream I was in a movie. I of course can't remember exactly the details but it had a plot, characters, dialogue and everything. My question to you is - have you ever dreamed anything that you were able to harness and actually remember enough of it to bring it to life in an episode/screenplay/play etc?
ReplyDeleteFYI I no longer post here because of the ludicrous imposter above, so any posts under that name going forward won't be by me. It's been fun but I'll just be a reader from now on.
ReplyDeleteAs for the fake, please seek help.
The fake Darwin was a Ghost writer!
ReplyDeleteDarwin's Ghost -- the real one.
ReplyDeleteHere's what I'm going to do - delete any comment from Darwin's Ghost. I invite you to sign in with a different name.
Thanks Ken. You're a swell guy.
DeleteI liked Frasier better because I couldn't find anyone in Cheers that didn't seem like a caricature. Sam was just too shallow, allowing for one of his funniest lines "There's a book???" Everyone else seemed to be serving a role, with perhaps only Carla at one point being developed more than the others. With Frasier, I found the only grounded character was Martin, everybody else had some extreme character flaw(or several). I do remember watching an episode of Frasier once and thinking "This show is so well-written!", something I don't remember happening any other time. I thought "Room Service" might have resulted from folks getting together and saying "Let's see if we can write a farce!" because it seemed like such an anomaly(still thought it was funny, and I always thought Bebe was the hottest woman on both shows). The funniest line for me from Frasier wasn't even spoken by a regular: "That's not gibberish...that's Klingon!"
ReplyDelete“ What? Breakfast in the bathroom?” Killer line that defines Room Service!
ReplyDeleteI have seen every episode of "Frasier" one hundred times, if not more. I watched "Cheers" during its original run, but have never watched a repeat. I have no interest.
ReplyDeleteI watch at least one "Frasier" every day.
When I drive long distances, I play episodes on my iPhone. And LISTEN. I don't have to see the performances, to appreciate the writing and acting. The actors are brilliant.
Cheers was a "sports bar"?? Maybe in some quaint 1980's corner of Boston. To me, sports bars are temples of chrome, noise, video monitors in every direction, noise, 20-somethings getting pissed, and, oh yes, noise. I wouldn't even rank Cheers as a "sports pub".
ReplyDeleteWe dug "Frasier" out of the collection and watched the entire series thru the pandemic. It's just amazing. Wonderful characters with impeccable comedic timing. An episode can deliver wry amusement at a droll "Noel Coward" witticism one scene and then belly-busting slapstick after the commercial break.
I can see how those wonderful personal memories and experiences would bias your decision, but as a mere consumer from way, way over here, "Frasier" easily wins over "Cheers".
Gilbert Gottfried dead Tuesday at 67--AP
ReplyDeleteAs a Seattleite, I selfishly prefer "Frasier". Seattle in the 1990s captured the imagination of the nation, with the rising technology sector, grunge music, a charismatic basketball team. And "Frasier"'s setting added to the cultural touchstones set here.
ReplyDelete"Sleepless in Seattle" showed off the scenic attractions and Tom Hanks' houseboat, "Singles" perfectly captured the sensibilities of the grunge-loving, Gen-X twentysomethings (of which I was at the time), and "Frasier" nailed our neurotic intellectual class. The only thing I didn't get was how salt-of-the-earth Martin let his sons be named Frasier and Niles, instead of something like Joe and Steve.
I especially remember when "Frasier" shot its 100th. episode here in 1997. At a Mariners game I attended, the entire cast save John Mahoney came out for the ceremonial first pitch. Not just David Hyde Pierce and Peri Gilpin, but also Dan Butler (Bulldog) and Moose (one of the Eddies). When it was time for Kelsey Grammer to toss the first pitch, the rest of the cast scrambled away from the mound and toward the baselines and dugouts.
I would probably say the first five seasons of Cheers are my favorite, though I think Frasier is better throughout its run. I like 6-11 of Cheers, but don't love them.
ReplyDeleteI'm all in on CHEERS...
ReplyDeleteI watched the pilot at 15 and was hooked. I used to check the LA Times Calendar section every Wednesday to see the ratings for CHEERS and HILL STREET. Hoping they wouldn't get cancelled.
Like Ignatowski, I should have been a network suit...
I can imagine writing a Cheers episode. The kit was there: all the characters, built-in situations, and actors that could handle any line. I would enjoy the heck out of doing it.
ReplyDeleteI can imagine writing a Frasier episode and ending up with my fingers wrapped in bandages from biting them.
The bar was high on both shows, but the game was HORSE on Cheers and grenade wrestling on Frasier.
Gilbert Gottfried walks into a sports bar in Boston. He shouts, "Can anybody tell me what the three most important things in comedy are?"
Sam opens his mouth but Gilbert shouts over him. "Timing!" he screams.
Frazier starts to speak and Gilbert points a finger at him. "You're wrong! It's timing!" he snaps.
Woody pipes up, "I know!"
Gilbert squints a glare at Woody. "You know the third important thing in comedy?" He motions with his hand. "If anybody knows, let's hear it. One, two..." He raises his hands like a conductor and brings them down on, "...three!"
Everyone in the bar shouts, "Timing!" except Woody and Gilbert who quietly whisper, "Liverwurst."
Glbert takes a seat at the bar, "Sam, give me a hard lemonade, please," he says.
"You got it," says Sam.
Gilbert squints at everyone as the laughter dies down. "The worst thing about that joke," he mutters, "is I had to wait till I'm dead to tell it."
Woody passes him a liverwurst sandwich with the hard lemonade.
The bar on Cheers seemed the correct height.
Delete"Room Service"?
ReplyDeleteBRILLIANT.
I remember looking forward to Thursday nights to watch Cheers. I don't remember feeling that way about Frasier. I've watched ever single Cheers episode on streaming. I haven't done that with Frasier. That's just me. Both great shows, just different. It's comparing children.
ReplyDeleteFrasier has a healing vibe. If I'm sick or worried about someone close to me it's soothing to watch. Maybe because the episodes are so well constructed and entertaining. And also because the radio show allows for expression of deep feelings.
ReplyDeleteLately I've watched a few episodes of Cheers, which I haven't been into much though enjoyed it in its heyday. I'm appreciating the eccentric characters and stories that don't usually have pat or overly polished endings. I really liked the one with the rich guy who tells tall tales and enraptures the bar. Sam says something like, people come to a bar like this because we'll listen to their wild stories. Very nice, poetic.
"Room Service" is one of the funniest things (in any form of
ReplyDeletemedia; TV episodes, movies, plays) that I've ever seen in my life. It also made me realize what a knockout Bebe Neuwirth is.
As much as I love FRASIER--and I do love it--way too often they fell back on the same set-up: Frasier meets an attractive woman. Eventually she comes to the apartment to do the nasty, and around 9:23 something happens (usually not Frasier's fault) then sends her fleeing into the night. And its coitus interruptus yet again. I remember a special one-hour episode that was just this gag repeated THREE times. I wish there had been fewer of those and more like the one where they recreated an old radio show, which was fabulous. So because of its wider range of stories, I'd give the edge to CHEERS. (No offense intended, Ken.)
ReplyDeleteCheers. I'm one of those rare Cheers fans (judging by the comments on this blog) who think the Rebecca years were just as good (if different) as the Diane years, albeit after a six- or seven-episode period where they had to figure out how to use Kirstie Alley and the character.
ReplyDeleteWill I get banned if I say Niles and Daphne getting together hurt Frasier?
I remember the word going around that bar comedies just didn't work on TV, so Cheers was doomed.
ReplyDeleteFQ: Something I've noticed with multi cameras the past ten or so years is besides the annoying clearly mechanical laugh tracks, the pacing, rhythm and overall tone of mutli camera comedies have just been off. It seems as if today's writers only are going off what they perceive a sitcom to be without actually understanding the format if that makes sense. Do you think that's mostly because today's sitcom writers grew up watching tv (and clearly watching mostly the bad sitcoms) rather than talented people who ended up writing for tv but had other ambitions or occupations? I saw Sam Simon of Cheers\Taxi\The Simpsons say something to that affect.
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