Byron starts us off:
On Frasier, Glen and Les Charles received credit at the end of every episode for creating the character of Dr. Crane, as he debuted on their show. However, what if a character not developed by the original creators were to receive a spinoff? I know you and David created Eddie LeBec, and I know he was killed off, but hypothetically speaking…had Eddie received his own show, would you and David have received the creator credit, or would it have gone to the Charles Bros. since he originated on their show? Or would all four of you perhaps have received credit?
I don’t know the exact rules, but I believe if a writer receives character credit on someone he created who went on another series he would be entitled to some credit and royalty. A few readers posted examples. So had Eddie lived and gone on to a sequel I'd be very rich today. Just what the credit would be and whether we would have to share it, I do not know.
But that wasn’t always so. Jim Fritzell & Everett Greenbaum wrote an episode of THE ANDY GRIFFITH SHOW that introduced a character named Gomer Pyle. They never got a cent or credit on the long running Gomer Pyle series.
C. Warren Dale asks:
This is about opening sequences. Some shows had more-or-less the same opening sequence for their whole run. CHEERS is an example, although I heard it was shortened as the show went on. Growing up watching CHEERS on syndication, it seems like I only ever saw the shortened version, but when I watched CHEERS on Netflix, it seems like they used the long version for the entire run of the series.
When shows go into syndication they’re cut down so more commercials can be inserted. Using a shorter opening credits sequence means another 15 seconds or so of content can remain in the show.
If I’m not mistaken, we used the shorter version occasionally on first-run episodes when we desperately needed every second of content we could get. I don’t know about today, but back then you couldn’t call the network and say “We need an extra 22 seconds please.” You could come in a minute or 30 seconds short but not long. And sometimes having that extra minute to cut out would improve a show considerably.
Chris Bernard queries:
Ken, do people in show business think it's ridiculous the adulation actors receive? Do they find it strange people don't separate the actor from the character?
Fame is bizarre. People are adored because they’re on television. I had a taste of that when I was doing TV games for the Mariners. I would always be amazed when someone stopped me at a restaurant and wanted my autograph.
But the reality is show and movies and theatre productions succeed largely because they contain actors the audience wants to see. So in a sense they are somewhat special.
The trouble comes when they think they’re more special than they are.
However, I’ve been fortunate in my career to work with a lot of big actors and most have a healthy perspective.
As for people confusing them with their characters, yes, that’s a problem.
I was at a Dodger Spring Training game a few years ago sitting with Kurtwood Smith. At the time he was a bad guy on 24. We went up to get some food and some clown standing in line with us yelled at him, “Hey, lay off of Jack Bauer, asshole!” Kurtwood shook his head and said he gets that a lot. (To which I said, “Well lay off Bauer.”)
Shelley Long told me she attended some church event and checked in. They gave her the name tag “Diane.”
I bet it happens a lot.
Chris Dellecese has a two-parter to wrap up this week.
As a viewer, which TV or movie death hit you the hardest?
Lady Sybil on DOWNTON ABBEY. I stopped watching the show after that. I thought her death was so unnecessary.
And as a writer, were you ever directly involved in a decision to kill off a character?
Earlier in this post we were talking about Eddie LeBec. David Isaacs and I killed him off. So let that be a lesson to the rest of you actors.
What’s your Friday Question?
46 comments :
My late mother was a medical records transcriptionist at a hospital that received mail addressed to soap opera characters.
I stopped watching Downton Abbey once I realized that the plotting was so whipsaw fast that characters did not respond to life-changing events adequately. The death of Lady Sybil was the forerunner to that. I recall an SNL skit that supposed DA was on Spike TV (describing the sisters as "the hot one, the really hot one, and the other one."
Am giving The Gilded Age a try despite Fellowes's propensity to overload hours. I like Carrie Coon's presence and poise in her role, and while I really like Christine Baranski, I am getting a little suspicious that the role has one note. While Louisa Jacobsen seems fresh (at that age, everyone does), every time I see her I think "Ah, another Streep daughter."
I will probably stick this out despite any misgivings.
In the wake of Marjorie Taylor Greene accusing Nancy Pelosi of running a gazpacho police, I think someone should pitch an exciting new cop show set during WWII.
Gazpacho Police will follow the lives of an elite group of undercover officers living in Vichyssoise France. All their time is consomméd by their work trying to bring down the Qanazis and their puppet leader Marshal Philippe Le Pain. But they don't act recklessly. They keep their chowder dry until the right moment.
And like all villains, Marshal Le Pain has a henchman, Minister for Antisemitism Marguerite Taylor Verte, whose first act in the Le Pain government is to ban Matzo ball soup.
Theme song by Meghan Trainor, All About That Bouillabaisse.
This is the original version of the Magilla Gorilla opening. The second verse was cut in syndication for obvious commercial reasons:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWqGNvenO5c
Happy birthday, Ken!
I was once writing a 2 parter for a show in the UK. The closest we had to a lead actor went to the head of drama at the production company and demanded a pay rise. They argued.
Next day, I got a call - the storyline was thrown out. Now part 1 was to be the murder of that actor's character. They didn't know who did it, they didn't care, I had to leave it sufficiently open that a number of characters could have done it.
I'm not aware that there was ever any problems with the cast after that.
The actor's career pretty much vanished after that. The head of drama had a fabulous career afterwards, in the BBC and international drama. Even now she's listed as an executive producer on one of the most feted shows run TV in the last few years.
The ironic thing is the Kurtwood Smith character on 24 was a US Senator responsible for heading up the Senate Committee in charge of investigating illegal acts of torture perpetrated by Jack Bauer. In other words, he was just acting as a proper elected US official - one who was simply trying to do a good job, acting on the nation's best interests.
But of course, anyone who stood in the way of Jack Bauer - no matter how right he/she/they was - just had to be morally and ethically wrong, because Jack is NEVER wrong. It seems the clown who was giving Smith a hard time on the game had no problem with Jack torturing people, but somehow had issues with a politician actually doing the right thing for once.
Then again, he also seemed to have trouble separating the actor from the character, so....
Gomer Pyle is actually an unusual case. . . .
Jim Fritzell & Everett Greenbaum were Andy Griffith and Don Knotts's favorite writers for the show, that may have something to do with them writing the episode that introduced the Gomer character, but the concept of the character was Andy and Don's - and, they originally planned on casting George Lindsey as that character, until the ended up discovering Jim Nabors, and felt he was much better suited for that role, so they brought him onboard as Gomer instead. Unfortunately, what ended up happening was Gomer became such a fan-favorite character that Andy and Don began to feel as though he was upstaging both of them, and so GOMER PYLE, U.S.M.C. was created as a means to get rid of him so they could have the spotlight to themselves again.
When it comes to THE ANDY GRIFFITH SHOW, Andy and Don had a lot of control over the show . . . but, that was a good thing. Andy himself has even said the major difference between when he did THE ANDY GRIFFITH SHOW in the 60s and MATLOCK in the 80s was for the former, the network was more or less merely your "host," they may come in from time to time just to see how things were going with the production of the show, but otherwise left the cast and crew to their devices, while for the latter, the network instead employed "kids with suits" who would basically call all the shots instead.
Since you favored us with two mentions of Eddie LeBec, you've talked before about the reasons for writing him off the show. Had Jay Thomas not made those comments about Rhea Perlman that led to you killing him with a Zamboni, did you have plans in mind for the character? It seems the relationship between Eddie and Carla had a lot of potential.
I guess we're all lucky that things unfolded as they did. “Death Takes a Holiday on Ice” is a brilliant episode. But it probably would never have happened, except for one ill-timed comment by an actor...
Eduardo, Kurtwood Smith will ALWAYS be Red Foreman to me!
From another site:
Jessica Brown-Findlay was the first main cast member to leave Downton Abbey, but the actress made it clear from the start exactly how long she intended to remain with the series. As Downton Abbey's creator Julian Fellowes told Vanity Fair in an interview in November 2015, "Jessica had said she was going to leave right from the beginning. She said, ‘I'm doing three years, then I'm leaving.’ So that was all worked out." The actress herself has explained that she was wary of spending too long in the role and then not doing anything else. Brown-Findlay was only 20 when she was cast so it made sense she was afraid of being typecast as the aristocratic Lady Sybil of Downton Abbey and wanted to have a more diverse career.
They could have sent her to America. Or had her join a traveling circus troupe. They didn't have to kill her.
"We went up to get some food and some clown standing in line with us yelled at him, “Hey, lay off of Jack Bauer, asshole!” Kurtwood shook his head and said he gets that a lot. (To which I said, “Well lay off Bauer.”) "
Who gives a shit about Jack Bauer? Kurtwood shot Robocop! Ruined the man's life! And you said nothing?
Jess Oppenheimer, creator-producer-head writer of I LOVE LUCY for its first five seasons, sucessfully sued Lucille Ball in the late 1960s, Oppenheimer's contention being that the "Lucy Carmichael" character Ball had been playing for several years on THE LUCY SHOW was essentially, details aside, the "Lucy Ricardo" character he created for I LOVE LUCY. Desilu's lawyers argued that "Lucy Carmichael" was a complete different character than "Lucy Ricardo," pointing out that THE LUCY SHOW always credited as source for its creation a book titled LIFE WITHOUT GEORGE. The powers that be sided with Oppenheimer, who got the substantial royalties he was owed. The Writer's Guild has always recognized Oppenheimer as creator of I LOVE LUCY, despite however many bows Desi Arnaz took for it late in life.
@Craig Gustafson
I know everyone is anxiously awaiting clarification of the Magilla Gorilla theme history :) so here goes-- The Magilla Gorilla Show and The Peter Potamus Shows were both syndicated first in 1964, then moved to Saturday mornings after. They were developed for syndication by the Ideal toy company with Hanna-Barbera and each theme promoted this in the second half of the songs.
Magilla's edited verse, he sings, "Handsome, elegant, intelligent, sweet, I'm really Ideal" on purpose, and even the slightest reference to a toy company that was later NOT a sponsor (and not paying) was not allowed (this is likely why "Topper" the penguin was dubbed as "Waddles" in the syndicated version of "Santa Claus is Comin' to Town."
Hanna-Barbera's first series created especially for Saturday mornings was "The Atom Ant and Secret Squirrel Show" in 1965 on NBC.
And now for something completely different, I might suggest checking out UPSTAIRS DOWNSTAIRS to compare to DOWNTON ABBEY. It lacks the lush, lavish dazzle of DOWNTON but takes much more time to develop characters more evenly in the opposing levels of economic background, so the effects of the world are covered in a greater variety of ways. Many characters and situations are unforgettable.
I've worked on films and TV. I tell people that actors hate it when approached on location by a "fan." You'll impress a performer MUCH more, if you smile/wave AND JUST KEEP WALKING. They'll actually pause, and look. I constantly see actors cringe when some screeching person walks up to them, telling them how much they LUV them. This includes when they're not on the set. Don't bother them in restaurants, stores, etc.
It's the C-level performers who WANT this kind of attention. Not everything is reality TV. And, no, these actors don't "owe" anyone a signature.
@Carter Burger
I'm really surprised that the fan didn't refer to Kurtwood as a dumb ass.
@Ken
The TV death that hit me the hardest was Mrs. Landingham on The West Wing.
UPSTAIRS DOWNSTAIRS?? DOWNTON ABBEY?? No offense, Greg Ehrbar, but based on your postings on the 'net, I didn't think you ever watched anything that wasn't animated and/or produced by Hanna-Barbera or Sid and Marty Krofft. ;-)
If, for example, I ever happened to meet George Wendt it would take every fiber of my being to resist shouting "Norm", but I think could manage it.
No, not really. NORM!
I can empathize with the comment about being the announcer for the Mariners.
I worked at an Internet Service Provider. I became management. I have a good voice and can read copy well, so I asked if I could do the phone tree announcements and management agreed. It was my voice that told you to press one for Sales, two for Technical Support, etc.
As management in technical support, every so often, there would be a person that would be upset about something and start barking at the rep on the phone. They would, in turn, ask to speak to a manager. The following is a summary of what would happen if people put two and two together:
IRATE CALLER: Hello! Your software sucks! My computer is messed up because of you and the jerk I spoke to is NO help!
ME: I'm sorry to hear that. Let's see if we can resolve this. What operating system are you running?
IRATE CALLER: YOUR SOFTWARE BROKE MY...wait. Is that your [pre-recorded] voice on the phone?
ME: Yes, it is.
IRATE CALLER: Really? You have a nice voice.
ME: Thank you! I appreciate that.
IRATE CALLER: You're welcome. I have a PC and it has...
As soon as they recognized my voice on the phone they calmed down EVERY TIME. 100% of the time. I can't remember if I got them connected and working each and every time, but they were always calmer afterwards.
Maybe I could start announcing games for the Jacksonville Jaguars. They still lose, but the listening audience might feel better about it if I used my "Calm Tech Support"-voice.
Greg: I remember Upstairs Downstairs from the 70s and thought it was a dull videotape UK soap. But it's miles ahead of Downton Abbey, which is so slack and tone-deaf it sounds like it was written by the Youths on their i-phones. Somebody assign them to read Evelyn Waugh.
Look at the clip. Basil Fawlty has been hit on the head and isn't thinking straight, but he insists on working.
Many years later, Cleese was walking through an airport in Germany and a German fan said, "Try not the mention the war!" Cleese thought that was funny.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tms0yk9kqVM
ScarletNumber, I agree about Mrs. Landingham. As much as I love Lily Tomlin I was never convinced that anyone would hire her to work in the White House.
I've already bailed on THE GILDED AGE. Fellowes is at it again, bringing 21st-century social attitudes into the past (the instant friendship of Peggy and Marian, Lord Grantham's calm acceptance when he learns Thomas is gay). This is why "woke" is a dirty word.
@Darwin's Ghost, re: the topical gazpacho reference (there's a sentence never spoken before this week ever)
"Minister for Antisemitism, Marguerite Taylor Verte"
Shouldn't that be "Minestrone for Antisemitism"? (ducking thrown cold AND hot soup)
@Ken Levine
I had a similar reaction to the fate of Susan on SEINFELD. The poison envelope thing was way too sadistic and awful, not to mention unfunny. A bad choice, in my opinion. In reaction, someone wrote in the letters column of, I think either TV Guide or Entertainment Weekly, expressing displeasure, but also coming up with a couple ideas on better ways to write off the character. The ideas were also quite dark humored, but vastly better than what the show did. Since I don't remember them specifically, I really wish I had a copy of that letters column nowadays.
Hi Ken, hoping you have a chance to see Letterkenny and weigh in?
Their "Prostate" episode was brilliant, and the greatest PSA ever all at once.
I hated to see Lady Sybil die. But it also occurs to me that dying in or from childbirth was more common then, even among the wealthy. What Ken suggests about sending her abroad might have worked if Fellowes hadn't married her off to Tom.
I can imagine Lord Grantham accepting Thomas being gay, then somebody telling him about homosexuality, and saying, "I say, I accepted THAT?" He can be that obtuse.
Nice mentions the prostate episode. NYPD Blue got a lot of favorable attention for Andy's issues with his, as he called it, his "prostrate." Of course, it helped that Dennis Franz is an acting genius. Now, if HE had been in Downton Abbey ....
The Simpsons is famous for shortening or lengthening its opening sequence in order to properly accommodate the particular episode. Because of the couch gag, it isn't obvious.
I'm not ashamed to admit that I shed a tear when E.T. died.
I have often wondered how the mask mandates have affected celebrities. One the one hand some celebs value their privacy. Walking around with a mask keeps them relatively incognito. I have seen people I thought were famous, but wasn't sure enough to say anything to them.
On the other hand, you know there are those egomaniacs that hate the fact that no one can recognize them. Without all the attention it must tear them up inside.
Most of the actors I've met have been relatively nice. Although, I suppose it depends on how you approach them. If you come off as too starstruck or effusive that can be detrimental.
Other actors can be total anal orifices. You call yourself an actor, so you could at least ACT as if you appreciate your fans. After all, with the fans you're nothing.
On "Star Trek: Voyager" there was a character named "Tom Paris." The same actor played an almost identical character on "Star Trek: TNG." I don't know if it's true, but some speculate that the "Paris" character was renamed so that they wouldn't have to pay royalties to the original writer.
But if the "Capital City Goofball" ever gets a spinoff, you and David should be rolling in cash.
M.B.
I don't know if this counts here, but let's see:
There was the strange case of a couple of radio actors who played Ellery Queen on the weekly radio show.
According to the show's format, the actors were technically unbilled; they were introduced as "Ellery Queen, the celebrated gentleman detective in person" (italics mine).
One of these actors took to making personal purchases (clothing, accessories, and such) using the Ellery Queen name; when Fred Dannay and Manny Lee, who created and owned the character, called the actor on this, he was a bit miffed - after all, he'd paid for the stuff, hadn't he?
Some while later, a different actor who played EQ began booking personal appearances (lectures, school assemblies, and the like), using the character's name - without first clearing them with Dannay and Lee.
Again, Fred and Manny called Actor #2 on this, and again, the performer didn't see what he'd done wrong ... but he did have to stop ...
True stories - and you might recognize at least one of the actors (if you're old enough, anyway).
@Mibbitmaker Even Larry David's own mother gave him an earful over the death of Susan!
I know two stories of fans getting after actors because of their characters.
1) Patrick Dempsey recalled meeting a few old women when "Grey's Anatomy" took hold. They told him how much they enjoyed the show ... and started ragging on him for McDreamy's affair with Meredith. "You're a married man! Why are you carrying around with a young woman? Won't that hurt Meredith?" Dempsey simply replied, "Hey, don't ask me, ask the writers!"
2) Fred MacMurray's daughter narrated a feature on him for one of those TCM filler spots. The MacMurrays were enjoying a family Disneyland outing after "The Apartment" came out when a furious woman ran up to him. Not only did she scream at him for his married character's affair with Shirley Maclaine's in that movie ... she started smacking him with her purse a la Ruth Buzzi's "Laugh-In" character. After she stormed off, a smarting MacMurray said, "That's it. No more villains."
That vow did lead to success with "My Three Sons", but I would've liked to have seen him play more bad guys. He was pretty good as one in "The Caine Mutiny" as well.
"I stopped watching the show after that. I thought her death was so unnecessary."
And I thought I was the only one.
For a long time I wondered why the Charles brothers received credit on Frasier but not James Burrows. Then I thought it's not because he originated on their show, but he first appeared on an episode written by the brothers, which would therefore be the creators of the character. This makes sense to me but does it make sense to you? Or, is it correct?
Most Simpsons Couch gags are under 10 seconds though some more recent ones take about a minute or so but much of the opening sequence was cut. For most episodes in seasons 5-8, the sequence was cut to the numb with the opening titles and then Homer being chased into the house by Marge followed by the couch gag.
Regardless, here is the most famous sequence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsumlZBm_ww
Liggie, I'm guessing that purse-hitting woman never saw Double Indemnity...
Friday question: Any stories about the actor William Hickey who played Carolton Blanchard on Wings? He was the recurring annoying old man that drove the gang crazy. And as if he wasn't enough torture, Gilbert Godfried appears as his nephew and he was even more annoying. Hilarious! I'm working my way through all the episodes on Hulu and enjoying them immensely.
I remember an episode of FRIENDS early in its run which kind of poked fun at a fan not understanding the difference between the actor and the character. I think it was a post-Super Bowl celebrity-filled episode. And I can't think of the name of the famous guest star who played than fan.
Speaking of DOWNTON ABBEY, I ran into Maggie Smith at a small Italian deli in Chelsea (London), near where we both live, about 45 minutes ago!(honest!). Still looking reasonably spry at 87… in black slacks and Nikes, camel pea jacket, and Hard Day’s Night era mod black cap. Very petite! We were both picking out antipasti from the same display. :)
@DyHrdMET
You mean the 1996 FRIENDS post-superbowl episode. That was Brooke Shields. She played a character who thought Joey Tribbiani was actually Dr. Drake Ramoray. Her maniacal performance was given tons of praise, which is how she got the main role on SUDDENLY SUSAN afterwards. It was almost equivalent to Travolta's Pulp Fiction comeback.
The TV death that hit me the hardest was Edith Bunker. Was it necessary? Only if you believe, as Carroll O'Conner and William S. Paley did, that a show with a character named Archie Bunker needed to be on TV and milked for every last cent long after everyone else, including Edith portrayer Jean Stapleton, decided it was time to move on.
hat a show with a character named Archie Bunker needed to be on TV and milked for every last cent long after everyone else, including Edith portrayer Jean Stapleton, decided it was time to move on.
they started showing reruns of Archie Bunker's place on one of the nostalgia channels and.... oy, is it bad. Then again as I recall AITF started to repeat itself a bit even before Mike and Gloria left
William Hickey played Debra Winger's father in Forget Paris. Two classic scenes, "Naming Signs" and "You asked for it, you got it. Toyota."
https://youtu.be/FsKYNQTbSD4
Ken,
I worked on Star Trek TV for 7 seasons. You would not believe the amount of mail the production office got addressed to the shows characters. It was scary.
Dick Wolf was the king of firing actors. He had story driven shows in Law and Order and its progeny. He did not need any actor to swing the show and could release any one he wanted to. Let me tell you what a shift in actor attitudes after he started releasing actors. Much more polite and much more contented right where they were. It was a relief for this
Wardrobe Supervisor.
Dick Wolf was the king of firing actors. He had story driven shows in Law and Order and its progeny. He did not need any actor to swing the show and could release any one he wanted to. Let me tell you what a shift in actor attitudes after he started releasing actors. Much more polite and much more contented right where they were. It was a relief for this
Wardrobe Supervisor.
Hi Ken,
I'd like to know how Kelsey Grammar had time to guest on Becker when he was making Frasier at the time.
Have you hear Tom Hanks taking a spin as a Boss Radio DJ? https://www.mixcloud.com/pinbot/?fbclid=IwAR02WcJ6I7ds3xLH4PAZkNShEb706ZELoo1OZXnYWD0vJTj5zpRpOvVAHKQ He'll be on again later this month.
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