danny woodhead has a question all in lower case:
friday question: on the cheers anniversary show, why'd you guys go with john mclaughlin to host? and... was the seating arrangement a big discussion? i can't imagine shelley long was psyched about being seated next to robin colcord and a charles brother.
NBC asked them to a do a clip show (highlight clips from previous episodes) for November sweeps and the Charles Brothers were looking for a novel way to do that. John McLaughlin was a popular PBS host so he provided a little culture to the event. It was also an out-of-the-box choice.
I don’t know how the seating arrangements were set. I was not there the night they shot this. But I would be honored to be seated between Glen Charles and Roger Rees. Plus, she's sitting near the center. I don't see where that's a bad position in any way shape or form.
JS asks:
My Friday Question -MeTV just ran the last episode of Henry Blake. Why is it considered funny that he forcibly kissed Hoolihan. That has always bugged me. It's not funny - at all. Different times, I don't know. And they had to make it like she love it.
You said it yourself — different times. It’s supposed to be 1951. To do a period piece and inject today’s woke sensibilities to behavior is not being authentic or real.
And many people did find it funny. They still do. Hot Lips, at the time, was a rather bawdy character. I believe Henry assumed she wouldn’t mind.
And it’s one joke.
Kendall Rivers wonders:
Have you had the chance to check out Abbott Elementary yet? If not I highly recommend it! Definitely has the traditional classic sitcom feel yet still feels fresh. In my opinion it's the best comedy I've seen on television period since The Middle. It definitely has Middle quality vibes to me.
I have seen a number of episodes. I admire it, I like the characters (especially Sheryl Lee Roth), it’s well constructed, it makes me smile, but it doesn’t make me laugh. I’m still looking for that sitcom that makes me laugh.
And finally, from Janet:
You mentioned sweeps in your answer about FRASIER.
My question is: Are sweeps still a "thing," and how have they changed over the years?
Yes… sorta. But not really. Ratings now are less important. Time shifting, streaming, shows on multiple platforms make it hard to really determine just how many eyeballs will see your commercial.
Networks no longer try to make a big splash for sweeps. Personally, I think advertisers are happy about that. Sweeps always inflated the ratings. How many final episodes of MASH can you run?
What’s your Friday Question?
51 comments :
I too like Abbott Elementary but the constant looking at the camera and eye rolling is so annoying Has that replaced the laugh track to let us know that this is supposed to be funny?
Potential Friday question for you. I recently saw the episode of Frasier where he tries to date a police officer, and I was impressed by the initial scene in the car. Mostly its pretty easy to tell on sitcoms that the actors are sitting in a windshieldless car on a stage, but the lighting and timing really convinced me on this one (plus you could actually see reflections on the windshield). What kind of tricks and techniques do they use to pull off driving sequences like that?
I concur with your take on the Hot Lips kiss. Times change.
One instance where retrofitting current values on earlier times that didn't work for me was the opening of the movie "Watchmen". In an alternate universe 1939, two women are shown, murdered. Written in their blood was the word, "Lesbian". Granted, the upshot of this is a hate crime that ends up with two people dead, but if this person was so incensed by what they were, would they take the time to scrawl a (what I believe to be) respectful term? That's akin to going into a bathroom where a racist has scrawled, "All African-descended people that see this can eat it".
Hey, I just noticed that I answered the first two questions myself when they were first asked 🙂
Anyway, I still maintain that McLaughlin was undergoing a bit of a popularity surge due to the Dana Carvey impression on Saturday Night Live.
John McLaughlin provided culture. Is that what that was? Well, you did write, "a little". I recall watching that show, not knowing who McLaughlin was and wondering why the gruff piece of wood was hosting. I don't know if Dana Carvey's imitation exaggeration was before or after the Cheers special, but if Carvey had hosted doing that imitation, that would have Emmy material right there alone.
These random wheezing-lectures are made by one who’s not watched the Hot Lips kissed scene..
• “Woke” has, alas, partly been adopted as a pejorative by 1. the right wing wealthy + pols (to enflame the base) and 2. the defensive fans and creators who won’t admit, or didn’t realize, that what’s offensive Now was usually offensive Then — the period in which a work was created Or set:
e.g. Blackface (in D W Griffith OR Buster Keaton films) And other ethnic racial religious sexual false degrading stereotypes.
What purpose was served by having Chico Marx’s dumb but conniving character be Italian; or by having Iron Eyes Cody and J Carroll Naish — 2 Oscar noms!! — consistently offensively play non-WASPS?
• Non-consensual contact or attempted contact, of which sex battery and assault are a subset, and which can also include kisses — are not — then or now — to be cheered — or laughed at— as, for example, in the many instances of on-screen intoxicated “seductions.”
e.g. The plot of The Miracle of Morgan’s Creek revolves around a case of non-consensual sex (i.e. rape), and women certainly knew it then. Comedies can be made on any subject, including rape, but Creek denied the truth while making a joke of it
• Ralph Kramden’s “To the Moon, Alice” air-punching tirades were assaults — then and now: a “threat or attempt to inflict physical harm or unwanted physical contact, a crime and a tort eligible for both criminal prosecution and civil liability.” Women — and boys who grew up with such fathers — then and now knew Kramden-types as abusers, jerks who concomitantly committed battery, as Ralph presumably did.
• Down-punching by a Joe Rogan or Dave Chapelle may, allegedly, not seem like down-punching to them today, possibly because they’re not in the groups they attack, but it’s as offensive when they started doing it as it will be in the future.
• Untruthful un-ironic disparagement of “the other” — even in comedy — makes it easier for the powerful to exploit groups and deny them their rights + votes. Ellen Degeneres, now partying in the wealthy club with George Bush, should remember that the type of “joke” that called her “Ellen Degenerate” made it easier to jail LGBTQ or deny them marital, and, even now, other legal rights
I taught HS English for 20 years. My wife taught K-1 for 30 years. Abbott Elementary makes us both laugh a lot. Maybe it's because Quinta Brunson knows the milieu so well (the show gets working in a school), or maybe it's strokes for folks, but I think it's the funniest show since Superstore.
Eugene Debby- whether or not your post was serious, I'm glad we don't really know each other.
I’m still looking for that sitcom that makes me laugh.
It's been long time since that rare combination of intelligent writing, acting, and directing paired with good characters and most of all, genuine laughs. You might have to go back to FRASIER to find that grouping in a sitcom. On the bright side, late night comedy such as SNL, Colbert, Kimmel, and Seth Meyers, have been astoundingly great in recent years, and are pretty much the best we've had for that dynamic of smart and genuinely hilarious.
I still miss the narrative continuity of a good sitcom. And I find the ironic smirking in the deadpan prime time comedies of the past few decades insufferable too.
I don't want to smirk, I want to laugh.
Friday questions:
1) if I remember correctly MASH did that scene a few different times were somebody kisses hot lips out of nowhere and she appears dazed by it and seemed to love it.
Does it ever come up in writers rooms, “hey we’ve done that before”?
2) You mentioned you’re looking for the sitcom that makes you laugh. Is it possible because of what you do and have done, and the thousands of jokes I’m guessing you have pitched and heard pitched, that you would always see it coming and nothing would make you truly laugh at this point, just because of your history?
"I’m still looking for that sitcom that makes me laugh."
I really like "Young Sheldon" The cast is terrific. Annie Potts is still so sexy!
"B Positive" and "Ghosts" are pretty good, too. Annaleigh Ashford is fun to watch. (She was also great in "American Crime Story : Impeachment" as Paula Jones)
I think "Abbot Elementary" would be good, but I can't stand that "docu-series" style. It ruined "Modern Family" and even "The Office" for me.
About Henry kissing Margaret: Knowing her character, if she had disagreed with what he was doing, she would have used her knee on his jewels.
Comedy is hard these days when 40% of the Country thinks 'Let's go, Brandon' is HYSTERICAL.
One of the critics at the time of the Cheers special commented on how Shelley Long was seated away from the other main cast members and speculated it was because no one liked her.
I’ve only seen one episode of Abbott Elementary and it didn’t exactly click with me. But I’ll try again.
Considerably less than 40% of the country thinks “Let’s go Brandon” is hysterical. But they do know it gets under your skin, and that’s why they do it.
OK, I'm a little late on the show, but my wife and I openly laugh at Grace and Frankie. My wife, a teacher, laughs at Abbott.
I think your "laugh index" is different than most. It is higher since you have been there, done that, and would do what is presented very differently. While we on the outside, have a lower index. Since I've watched tooooo much TV, my index is a little higher (not as high as you), and can predict many jokes before they come (like on 2 Broke girls, could see a joke coming a mile away, which is why I only seen a little bit of 2).
I suggest every month or every 2 month, they have a "best of" skits from SNL, since some are good, half not. Just my $0.02
.
I'm really surprised that so many people like "Abbott Elementary." It's just not funny to me. Not even close. I also dislike the pseudo documentary style of the show. But then I was not a fan of "The Office" and I hated "Parks and Recreation" for the same reason.
UNKYSTAN beat me to the point about the looking at the camera. It's like a rimshot saying, that was the joke.
Ken said he thought "A.E." was "well constructed." I feel the same way about "American Auto" on NBC. It's not particularly funny, but it is well constructed and it has some clever writing. The episode about their politically correct commercial was particularly good.
"Grand Crew" is probably the best of the bunch. (Also on NBC) I've actually laughed a couple of times at that show. What makes "G.C." better is that the majority of the humor comes from the relationships of the characters. They rely less on jokes and silly situations.
I am no longer a Chuck Lorre fan. Everything after "Mike and Molly" has been a huge disappointment.
"Mr. Mayor" is supposed to be back soon. That sitcom I really liked.
Re: HOT LIPS. I know many women that are more like her than not.
M.B.
P.S. Speaking of baseball, I heard that the Designated Hitter is coming to the National League. Not sure I like that idea. Any opinions, Ken?
Ken, in the story about Stephen Miller's phone records, when I saw he was still on his parents' family plan, I had a chuckle and thought of you.
Thanks for answering my FQ!
On the most recent episode of "The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel," they dramatized some bits from Lenny Bruce's legendary Carnegie Hall performance (presumably the few moments that could actually be broadcast on Amazon Prime). One of them must have seemed like daring anti-racist humor in 1961, but today just came off as a mean, unfunny fat joke about the singer Kate Smith. It was more evidence that not only what seems funny has changed, but what actually IS funny has changed, because what makes us laugh is based on our current sensibilities.
By the way, the actress in "Abbott Elementary" is Sheryl Lee Ralph (I also find it hard not to conflate her name with David Lee Roth, vastly different as they may be).
For a current comedy that makes you laugh, I recommend giving Space Force season 2 a try. Season 1 was a chore to get through, but they have now removed many annoying characters and subplots and amped up the comedy. The remaining cast has become much more likeable and funny, particularly John Malkovich and Ben Schwartz. This is the biggest improvement I've seen in a sitcom in its second season since The Office, which also happened to involve Steve Carell and Greg Daniels. I really hope people catch onto this show so that it gets a third season.
That kiss was funny. Also, if its the last woman you will ever kiss, might was well make it Hot Lips.
Don Kemp. 3/11/2022 9:53 AM
“Eugene Debby- whether or not your post was serious, I'm glad we don't really know each other”
• I get this all the time — people afraid to “really know” me, apparently fearing that by doing so they’d immediately abandon their significant others for beautiful me and my millionaire lifestyle. At least, that’s how I imagine it.
But, sadly, my post was serious; I may be a blowhard, but I like to think at least I’m blowing in the right direction.
• Fans of Grand Crew might want to voice/tweet their support, as it has not yet been renewed. Star Carl Tart is on this week’s Never Not Funny podcast
@ CHUCK RE: BLOWHARD (uhh - John McLaughlin)
Going out on the limb with a 35-year-old recollection:
But first - that's an interesting point about a Carvey parody - except, the show was about Cheers.
I recall that he did a weekend opinion show with (2) "left" and (2) "right" columnists - with a Beltway Politics orientation. It moved fast and was entertaining for 30 minutes. It helped that there were zero commercial breaks.
As such it WAS "culture" - narrowed down to the Washington political variety (kudos to Ken for his snapshot). Having the "contest" 2 to 2 - with Mac as "tiebreaker" for the Right - still kept it from being dreary - at least for the occasional times I watched it.
(and, when I saw the show on YouTube, he was instantly recognizable decades later)
@ Eugene Debby who wrote:
“Woke” has, alas, partly been adopted as a pejorative by 1. the right wing wealthy + pols (to enflame the base) and 2. the defensive fans and creators who won’t admit, or didn’t realize, that what’s offensive Now was usually offensive Then
Waayyy out here in my tiny corner of the world, "woke" only becomes an issue (for me) when "wokeness" is used as a weapon to scold an expression of old-school sensibilities. Otherwise, who cares whether someone is woke?
The regrettable thing about weaponizing like that, is that it presumes that such old-school expressions come from hostility - when it often is no more than innocent tone deafness.
As for Ralph "threatening" Alice, it seems clear that SHE never regarded it as such (being a comedy and all). It was also clear that SHE had the power when it really counted. Merely calling actual abusers "Kramden Types" is only that name-calling - which is tone deaf in its own way.
ISSUE ONE...Is CHEERS the funniest sit-com on television??? PAT BUCHANAN!!!
(chuckles) I've never it seen it, John.
SHOCKER...ELEANOR CLIFT???
With regard to the Kramdens, I seem to recall reading somewhere that when one of Audrey Meadows' successors started to cry in character, Jackie Gleason forbade it precisely in order to not have Ralph be seen as abusive.
Don't know that it's ever been mentioned here, but "Derry Girls" is, for my money, the funniest show out there right now. Hoping season 3 cranks up pretty soon....
@ Eugene Debby
You forgot Homer strangling Bart on The Simpsons. While that might be funny, it is also child abuse and I don't recall laughing at those scenes.
I work in a school and my coworkers and I love Abbott Elementary. Everything in it is very realistic and that's what makes us laugh, because otherwise we'd cry. The lack of funding for basic repairs and supplies, the need to dramatically beg the public for donations, the unqualified principal who was hired by a friend. We wondered if people who don't work in schools wouldn't really get it, because they'll think this is just about one wacky exaggerated school in Philly.
It's not. That's the public school system. They're finding humor and heart in a broken system, and we love it.
I laugh out loud at “The Other Two”. First season was on Comedy Central, 2nd season on HBO Max. Great premise, the leads are great and it’s funny
Stop saying "woke." It's Right Wing propaganda.
"Abbott Elementary" is brilliant.
Eugene Debby said:
" I get this all the time — people afraid to “really know” me, apparently fearing that by doing so they’d immediately abandon their significant others for beautiful me and my millionaire lifestyle."
No, I can say with certainty that isn't correct.
"But, sadly, my post was serious; I may be a blowhard, but I like to think at least I’m blowing in the right direction."
Irony, thy name is Eugene Debby.
Reading the post above declaring the edict on what is permissible in comedy, I immediately imagined it being delivered by Eldon Quick.
I can remember many shows over the years where characters have broken the "Fourth Wall". George Burns comes to mind right away. I believe that the father on Dobie Gillis did it a couple of times just by looking at the camera. Happened a lot on Gilligan's Island when Gilligan did or said something stupid and the Skipper gave an exasperated look at the camera. Sure there have been many other over the years.
I second the rec for Derry Girls - both seasons are great. It packs an extra punch for me as an Israeli, as I identify with some of the conflict-related humor (it's set during the Troubles).
Another UK show I like is Brassic, it's full of heart and pretty funny (there is some toilet humor though, in case that puts you off). Seasons 2 and 3 are better than the first IMO.
My 2 cents, for what they're worth: Sally Kellerman was a guest on the Tonight Show rerun. Also, I remember watching Honeymooners reruns in the 60's when I was a kid. I hated Ralph Kramden because he was a loud mouth bully always yelling at his wife. Still can't watch it. Janice B.
We had George Plimpton host our 200th Married…With Children retrospective. Same deal. Class up the classless show with a classy guy. He turned out to be an asset and didn’t get in the way of the funny.
I hesitate to wade into these waters but here we go. “Woke” is a term invented and used by proponents of post-modern critical theory (gender, race), intersectionality, etc TO DESCRIBE THEMSELVES. It is only since the right wing has started using it as a convenient cudgel, that you hear pleas from the far left not to use it. Whether you believe in its tenets or not it is a useful term which honestly describes people who adhere to a certain philosophy. I say use it as much as you would like.
A new feature!
Saturday Answers to Friday Comments
• Response to Jahn Ghalt 3/11/2022 4:41 PM
1. Wasn’t what’s prejudice now also prejudice then? And, if not born of hostility, perhaps mostly of an indifference or ignorance that oft bordered on, or fostered, cruelty? As for “innocent tone deafness”: Norman Lear — In hindsight— made a mistake creating a comedy series star out of Bunker, a spouse-abusing bigot more suitable as a one-episode Miami Vice villain. Weekly doses of Archie emboldened and encouraged racism.
2. Just as non-consensual marital sex was & is rape, Ralph’s behavior, as shown, was actual abuse & criminal assault —then or now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98qw86DsdZ0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSwopPDl3Oo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fw0zQzcRU2g
That there was physical abuse — battery — in such a relationship can be fairly assumed. And Alice was no avenging Lorena Bobbitt, even if she had been able to find Little Ralph under the fat. Alice, In real— not sitcom —life, would’ve fled, or remained, in fear and desperation.
• Response To
Don Kemp 3/11/2022 9:00 PM
“No, I can say with certainty that isn't correct.”
Like the January 6th tourists — you may have protested too much.
• Response To
The Curiously Doctored Humpp 3/11/2022 9:30 PM
“Reading the post above declaring the edict on what is permissible in comedy,...”
Everything is permissible in comedy, which isn’t to say much of it isn’t regrettable, or beyond justified criticism
• Response To
Anonymous 3/12/2022 10:59 AM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke
Wikipedia would seem to offer noticeably more accurate — and jargon-free — “Woke” info than did your post, though their page too often unwisely uses the words “Progressive” or “liberal” for “equitable” or “morality-based.”
In our wealth-backed fascist times, our Orwellian right wing turns words meanings — “woke” ... “defund” — on their heads.
Eisenhower, who taxed the wealthy 90%, and who — even before police departments became unregulated businesses — warned of the need to defund service waste and profiteering so as to fund our greater needs. would today be mocked on Fox as woke and progressive
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEGpTu8sVKI
Henry kissing Margaret never bothered me... completely consistent with both characters as we knew them then... but... contrast that kiss with Margaret and Hawkeye's goodbye kiss in the finale, and how THOSE two characters had grown, so that something that would have gotten a cheap (canned) laugh seven seasons before had all these dimensions of meaning and implied history. Plus I think it was a funnier scene.
@Eugene Derby Wow, you really need to find a funny bone lol. And btw, Kramden like abusers? Did Ralph ever actually hit Alice? No. Was Alice ever scared of him? No. So that statement is as ridiculous as the idea that being offended by any and everything is normal or ok.
Just some questions for anyone who says that "what's funny then isn't funny now because it's offensive blah blah blah" then I'm curious why Dave Chappelle's last two "offensive" specials were crazy successful and many people are declaring them classics on par with Richard Pryor, George Carlin and Eddie Murphy's most iconic specials? Why is The Honeymooners still super popular and beloved today as it was sixty plus years ago? Why is South Park still on the air after now 25 years? Why do most people spend their time watching reruns of classic comedies because they find the current ones bland and sanitized? Really curious about these lol.
I totally get it, Ken. I feel the same way about some comedies that some would think I'm crazy for like The Office, Parks and Rec, Mom etc. Not bad shows but not my cup of tea and I don't think they're as funny or brilliant as a lot of people say they are. To be fair I'm hard to make laugh out loud. Most comedies old and new will at most get a hardy chuckle out of me so when a show really cracks me up It's special. Frankly I don't care how good a show might be, there's just something about the great shows from the past eras that won't ever be topped.
Kendall Rivers 3/14/2022 11:21 AM
Daniel Patrick Moynihan -
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."
Here are some facts:
The Kramden character consistently yelled at his wife, shaking his fist a few inches within her face, angrily threatening to punch her to the moon. This is abuse, and assault —“a THREAT or ATTEMPT to inflict physical harm or unwanted physical contact, a crime and a tort eligible for both criminal prosecution and civil liability.” Any film of it entered as evidence would convict him.
As you say, the Kramden character was never shown hitting his wife, so there is no “visual evidence” of battery.
Now, here are some opinions:
My feeling — based in part on painful personal experience — is that the depiction of Alice and the absence of physical violence are a denial of all realities except for those enforced by the network. What was oppression, then or now — in this case, of women — was presented as acceptable viewing matter, but not to its logical grimmer conclusion. Sort of like Amos and Andy never had —. but didn’t need to have — a lynching discussion.
Kendall & Eugene -- can we now discontinue this thread? Neither of you is going to convince the other. You both made your points. Now shake hands and move on. Thank you.
Re Miracle of Morgan's Creek and how it defied censorship to tell the story of a teen girl's pregnancy after a "wild night" with soldiers about to be shipped overseas:
In his 1944 review of the movie in The Nation, James Agee famously said, "Sturges tells this story according to a sound principle which has been neglected in Hollywood—except by him—for a long time: in proportion to the inanity and repressiveness of the age you live in, play the age as comedy if you want to get away with murder. The girl’s name, Trudy Kockenlocker, of itself relegates her to a comic strip world in which nothing need be regarded as real; the characters themselves are extremely stylized—a skipping little heifer, a choleric father, an updated Florence Atwater, a classical all-American dope; and the wildly factitious story makes comic virtues of every censor-dodging necessity. Thanks to these devices the Hays office has been either hypnotized into a liberality for which it should be thanked, or has been raped in its sleep."
Sorry, Ken and Eugene. I know I can get a little... "persistent" sometimes lol.
> It’s supposed to be 1951. To do a period piece and inject today’s woke sensibilities to behavior is not being authentic or real.
I gather professional historians call it 'presentism': evaluating the past (even in fiction) by the standards of the present.
And they too agree it's a bad practice.
> presumably the few moments that could actually be broadcast on Amazon Prime
Anything can be "broadcast" on Amazon Prime, since it is not "broadcast" -- the FCC does not take a trusteeship role over non-OTA.
And Mr Debby? I don't disagree with your views, just your inclination to impose them on history; I think I'll take the opinion of professional historians about 'presentism', rather than yours, if that's ok with you.
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