For my last weekend post a loyal reader of my blog posted this:
I know it's probably meant well, but this is racial primitivism under the guise of enlightenment.
When I saw that I thought, in this highly charged super PC atmosphere we find ourselves in now, that's going to cause a shitstorm. Sure enough. An avalanche of responses.
I am particularly sensitive to this because as a comedy writer if you can't write something for fear that it will offend someone then there's nothing to write. And it's gone beyond the offended person thinking the joke was merely inappropriate or in bad taste. Now the offender is often labeled. Racist. Homophobe. Whatever. In some cases that may be true, but I suspect in most it's an over-reaction. You've never in your life laughed at a racial joke? You've never mimicked a foreign accent? The truth is we can't all be Mr. Rogers, and who knows what ever he said or did behind closed doors?
This was addressed beautifully I thought in the Broadway musical, AVENUE Q (lyrics by Robert Lopez). Give a listen. And everybody, please, just lighten up. Thanks.
43 comments :
Racist? To hear something from a different culture for the first time and appreciate its beauty?
Some people are just looking for things to be upset about....
This is why we can't have nice things. Like actually funny comedies on TV.
"You've never in your life laughed at a racial joke? You've never mimicked a foreign accent?"
That reminds me of my favorite Catherine Tate sketch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNKn5ykP9PU
And I so agree with you, Ken. Everyone should lighten up. I thought your weekend post (including the video) was both tasteful and enjoyable. What's wrong with someone making a video of a new musical discovery outside of his own comfort zone? I'd feel the same way about a young white country boy listening to Miles Davis for the first time, or someone from a third world country discovering Beethoven. In fact, that kind of respect for what's high-quality outside one's own culture is the very opposite of bigotry.
The best comedians going forward will need backbones of steel. But they will be popular. Regular people are sick of walking on eggshells, and will be drawn to comedians who don't base their act on whether someone might get offended. Examples are Dave Chapelle and Bill Burr, who seem to thrive off the PC blowback.
Hi Ken-I usually don't go back to read comments but this was the exception. I agree with you (no surprise) and as the saying goes, "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar".
I enjoyed the video, and if anything it prompted a look at my iPod, where Toby Keith exists with Ludacris, Dolly Parton and Cardi B are in the same world with Marty Robbins and Buddy Ace. I have the Boogie Woogie Babies and Clarence Carter, Hank Thompson and his Brazos Valley Boys and Sharon Jones and the Dap Kings share space with Pinetop Perkins and Ray Charles.
Hell, not only is Old Blue Eyes there, so is Mel Torme, Doris Day, Rosemary Clooney, and Louis Prima on the same planet as Nat King Cole, Cab Calloway, Louis Armstrong, and Al Yankovic?
I respect the opinion that was voiced-not what he said, but that he said it. I would argue to the death that there isn't a lot more to the video than somebody who found a new person to follow.
He needs to listen to "They've Got a Lot of Coffee in Brazil" and "Satisfy Me One More Time". It's dope!
In order to entertain the argument, we have to know if the commenter had the facts. He said in his post "These videos are not being made by or for black people, they are entertainment for white people". From what I can see, this video was made by the subject himself. Case closed.
What drives me nuts about this sort of thing is not that people divided about the post but that they attacked the one who posted it, because he must be a racist for posting it. A parable.
I made a comment in a Facebook message that a woman I know saw as sexist. I had no notion that it was, and I do realize in retrospect that without a sarcasm or irony font, it could look that way--I don't know that she would have taken it that way. She unfriended me and "ghosted" me, as the saying goes. Finally, I texted her and she said she did that to punish me for my comment.
This person had known me for about 15 years. We had fought together on behalf of various causes, including against mistreatment of women. And that was her reaction. And what I learned at that moment was that what I had said and done all my life didn't matter because of how she read something. Ken has made his positions clear here for years. And this is how some react? Please.
All you did was replay a clip from another podcast. If they don't like the content they should look to the man who posted it, not the man who simply shared it. I fear for a generation that searches for any excuse to find offense. What is this generation allowed to laugh at without fear of recrimination anyway?
That's why many comedians won't do colleges anymore.
"...someone from a third world country discovering Beethoven." Comments like this are why we SHOULDN'T "lighten up." Since when has classical music not existed in third world countries? Just because they are "third world", whatever that means, they don't have a history of classical music as part of their culture? That they need to "discover" Beethoven because "someone" grew up listening to spoons being slapped against legs. One of the most absurd comments I've read here. When you "lighten up" this is what appears. Other than that, a very good post today Ken.
Yours truly, "Spearchucker" Jones from M*A*S*H
Actually Derick from the UK
In the passive-aggressive world of modern social media, to claim victimhood online is seen as a way to claim power over whoever you're attacking. By saying this or that offends you, if you can get your complaint to go viral, you've now shown the power to silence, or (in the worst cases) de-platform or ruin the lives of people you've never met, based on your claim on your own or others' behalf of being victimized by their post.
And it's also why 2019 may be a Golden Age for TV drama, but it's a Rusted Tin Age for TV comedy, because nobody wants to risk having any of the above happen to them, because some throwaway joke on last night's sitcom has allegedly ruined someone's psyche due to its hurtful nature.
The only joke you can make these days:
"Two guys walked into a place. Something happened."
If the counterculture of the 1960s won at what point did it become so priggish?
I remember the hippies. They were not priggish. Can we get them back please. They were usually very laid back, often drugged out of their minds and farty from a veg and bean curd only diet, but laid back. Which is good enough in my book.
They'd often throw the politicos and militants out of their communes.
Was it just the militants who survived this long? Is that what happened?
Sean
@Stephen Marks,
Lighten up. Of course Beethoven exists in third world countries. You don't need to overreact. I have visited several third world countries where Western classical music is virtually absent except among the elite. There are members of my family who are music teachers and classical musicians, who have visited abroad. I know what I'm talking about.
As for the definition of "third world," it typically means countries that were outside of the major Cold War spheres of influence, and that often have extensive poverty. For example, infant mortality rates are higher in third world countries. Haiti, for example. But there are exceptions. (See here: http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/third-world-countries/). Listening to Western music of any kind is not a priority among many people in such countries, who are merely struggling to survive. But when they discover what we would call classical music (and "discover" is a completely appropriate word for it), they are often delighted.
You can find some examples on YouTube, if you like. Sometimes it's a musician from a poor country that has studied abroad, and then brings back the music to his village. There's nothing condescending or offensive about my example.
Again I say, lighten up. You are the problem.
South Park's Christmas episode where they end up doing the school play in grey jumpsuits chanting Phillip Glass hit it right on the nose. No matter what you do there will be someone that is offended. What happened to: if you don't like it, don't watch it?
Everyone's favorite hobby is being offended.
I say fork them. Fork them all!
Oh crap, I must be in the Good Place.
What if the Rapper hearing Sinatra was instead a Mormon Bishop hearing Rap for the first time? Who get offended there?
To J Lee:
Watch "Bob [Hearts] Abishola," perhaps the season's best new sitcom (a Chuck Lorre multi-cam, but please don't hold either of those against it). There are plenty of cultural and ethnic jokes -- the series revolves around a budding romance between a white middle-aged Detroit sock wholesaler (Billy Gardell) and the Nigerian immigrant nurse he falls in love with -- but the humor goes in all sorts of directions. Moreover, several actors and writers involved in the series are actual Nigerians, so the situations and jokes are well thought-out. Perhaps it won't be your cup of tea, but at least check it out. BTW, Lorre's producing a pilot, "The United States Of Al," about a U.S. military officer and his (also male) Afghan interpreter friend who reunite in Ohio.
Skip the racial debate...a puppet just got away with showing the middle finger on daytime TV!
I find this topic really interesting. In fact, I teach at a college and themed one of my courses around the topic of humor and comedy this semester. Several students conducted semester projects on this very issue: comedy in the age of PC culture.
My own view is that there's a fine line, but sometimes offensiveness is the point of certain forms of comedy. And comedians, satirists, and writers need to have the freedom to explore that.
That being said, I don't love the way you phrased some of this, Ken (and I say this as someone who greatly respects you and your work):
"In some cases that may be true, but I suspect in most it's an over-reaction. You've never in your life laughed at a racial joke? You've never mimicked a foreign accent? The truth is we can't all be Mr. Rogers, and who knows what ever he said or did behind closed doors?"
I agree that what we see are often over-reactions, but at the same time, no, I've never laughed at a racial joke. I've never mocked an accent. "PC culture," ultimately, is about respecting people. We throw around that term - political correctness - as if it's a bad thing. But what's wrong with not making fun of people's accents and expecting that mature adults can get through the day without enabling homophobic behavior by not saying something when someone says something homophobic in the name "free speech" and "sticking it to the PC snowflakes?"
Getting back to comedy, I absolutely think anti-PC humor is important. Comedy and satire exist to show us, in some ways at least, a hyper-realistic version of the world. Archie Bunker was America's most lovable bigot. America needed to see this racist caricature adapting to a post-civil rights country. Archie had to watch as his black neighbors surpassed him economically. The show had fun with this premise. If this show was produced today, it would be highly offensive because we've (ostensibly) evolved as culture since then. But I'd argue that a good deal of that evolution -- and yes, the evolution of PC culture -- is as a direct result of the risks folks like Norman Lear were willing to take in terms of producing offensive comedy. It's important.
In every day life, I'm not so sure. When my transphobic brother makes a transphobic joke, he's not trying to subvert societal norms by using this joke to hold a mirror up to our transphobic world in an attempt to show how warped and messed up it is. No. He's just being a dick. I'm fine with offensive comedy so long as the intended offense has a purpose. If it's just to offend or to mock minorities and marginalized communities, then that's where I have a problem. It's important that we interrogate these over-reactions to offensive humor. Ultimately, as a white person, I don't get to decide what is racist. Heterosexuals don't get to decide what is homophobic. We have to listen to the marginalized people who are the ones affected by these jokes.
There's a lot of nuance here, and that makes these kinds of discussions difficult and uncomfortable.
Didn't mean to write a dissertation. TLDR
I am so sorry. Really, I can't even begin to tell everyone just how low I feel. You see you may not know it, but I'm white and western.
I feel so intensely sorry about it that I've decided to crawl for the entire month of December. Not only that but I've arranged for the local high school track to be covered in broken glass. I'm planning the first "Crawl for White Sorrow" there towards the beginning of next month. Anyone who wants can sign up to sponser me at 20 dollars per shrill scream of horror as I crawl my way around the track in a thin hairshirt while taking timeouts to play an oppresive dirge on my violin. After the race I plan to give away one of my school age children to a random person of color so....Prizes!
Incidentally, does anyone know where I can pick up a midevil rack, preferably cheaply. It's just getting so expensive to really torture yourself for tolerance these days.
Sean
@Glenn: that's obvious patriarchal dominance.
Andrew
Thanks for the facts, I stand by my comment
"Two guys walked into a place. Something happened."
Sorry Glenn, but the committee has reviewed your joke and found it clearly gender-biased (why is it two guys?), shockingly ableist (why is it that the characters must walk?), and utterly privileged (clearly these characters have the societal privilege to freely enter a place without being hassled, and don't even know it!) And the punchline is predicated on the repellent, discredited idea that a event is only worth reporting if it is initiated or witnessed by certain privileged members of society.
The committee notes, however, that while it rejected every word of your joke, the punctuation was a scream!
To the overly sensitive poster from a few days ago: the boy’s GRANDFATHER recommended Sinatra to his grandson. This boy is hardly an example of white exploitation. Everybody is so offended. I’m on a Facebook fan page for The Odd Couple and someone posted “the pigeon sisters were sluts”. You cannot believe the comments. People were so offended that this person said that two FICTIONAL characters were sluts!
What I heard and saw was pure joy in discovering something new….something his beloved grandfather turned him onto. Cool is cool, and good is good. Frank is both of those things and cool people get it. The Beatles, Clapton, members of The Doors were crazy about the music of Muddy Waters, Robert Johnson, John Coltrane and other African American influences. Music knows no boundaries. Ken, wisely and with sensitivity, provided the video without comment. Unfortunately some folks could not resist the impulse to provide comment or be condescending….therein lies the problem…. the need to judge. We learn from each other. The young learn from the old, and hopefully the old can still learn from the young. I dug it.
To Jersey Jen,
How do you know his grandfather wasn't white?
Since I'm the commenter who is apparently the cause of this:
First, and most importantly, I absolutely meant no disrespect to Ken or his blog. I am not calling him or anyone else a racist, and I don't traffic in that kind of preachy invective. I simply had an opinion about something, and stated it, with no intention of personal attack. I'm nothing more than a dipshit comedy fan--at least give me that.
I don't want to disrupt this blog, because I've actually learned more here than about anywhere else.
@Stephen Marks,
Thanks for your response.
Here is one of my favorite examples of what I was referring to. Musicians from the Utah Symphony visit Haiti. Serious question: Does this offend you?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiRyNHH0kww
I always return to those brilliant words spoken by none other than The Divine Miss M, Bette Midler.
Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke.
Lucky guess.
And If he was then do you think his grandfather was trying to exploit him?
I agree.
shows might need a scroll "If you don't like it, turn it off"
Andrew
You're grasping at straws, probably the ones poor people use to play the violin. You have completely missed the point. Ken's post was directed towards racism or offensiveness in regards to humor and for some reason to decided to include Beethoven in your response. Now unless your a hair salon owner and see Ludwig Van walk in I can't see any correlation between humor and classical music, but you shoehorned it in any way, like Pavoratti putting on a wetsuit. Go back and read my first comment, my point was not that Beethoven was played or studied in third world countries, but that these countries have their own classical music to study, enjoy, pass down, laugh at, shit on and or ignore instead of having to seek out European composers. YOU made the point that YOU felt good knowing impoverished people in third world countries might discover Ludwig, completely disregarding that those very same countries may have their own culture which includes important classical composers. And your second comment, holy fuck, you said they are too busy looking for food to enjoy classical music. What a load of fucking crap Andrew. And by the way, you and your family staying at the Best Western in downtown Santago, Chile does not constitute being an expert on third world culture. Does that offend YOU?
And yes I am part of the problem, yes I say and do racist shit, even in here. I don't know what the solution is, but I do know that being an elitist won't help.
People name call when they cannot make a reasoned argument. Look to our current president for daily examples.
Bravo JAS!
I won't add to the fire, nor, as a Black man, add my perspective, but I will say that this is nothing new. Comedy writers in the 1950's had MANY taboos, including pregnancy and no mention of the president.
If you'd like an earlier example, watch this clip and skip ahead to 12:45.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WB5I3WuA8Zs
@Stephen Marks,
I obviously offended you. I did not mean to. I'm still perplexed by your reaction. But in any case, please accept my apologies.
My perspective is that Ken was discussing over-sensitivity in general, not just regarding racism. I honestly don't believe that what I wrote - "or someone from a third world country discovering Beethoven" - deserves such an intense reaction from you. But to each his own.
Concerning this: "And by the way, you and your family staying at the Best Western in downtown Santago, Chile does not constitute being an expert on third world culture. Does that offend YOU?"
I would say it doesn't offend me, but it saddens me. Why are you so angry? Why are you presuming so much about me? What makes you think I don't know more about various cultures than you give me credit for? Yes, I've stayed at hotels, but I've also stayed in people's homes, and gotten to know their families. I've learned from them. Again, why are you so intensely furious at one line from a comment I wrote that compliments people discovering what's best in other cultures? I realize that there are the equivalent of "Beethoven's" in other cultures. Why would you think otherwise?
Anyway, best of luck saving the world. That's a lot of responsibility to bear. Have a Merry Christmas, or if that offends, a blessed holiday season.
@Stephen Marks
"And yes I am part of the problem,yes I say and do racist shit, even in here. I don't know what the solution is, but I do know that being an elitist won't help."
Maybe when the rules accuse and indict their own supporters, like you, then the rules need to change? Maybe you, who seem to be acting in good faith trying to do the right thing, maybe you are not the problem. The categories you are using may be innacurate.
Sean
… So a priest, a minister, and a rabbi walk into a bar …
… and the bartender says. "What is this, a joke?"
So is it a joke?
Hey, was Charlie Chan Swedish?
Andrew,
We're done. Go listen to Ken's podcast today, it's excellent.
@Stephen Marks,
Will do.
By the way, last time I visited Malaysia I stayed with a Chinese family living in the middle of a lumber yard. I sang songs with them, and learned their peculiar hand movements that they used to accompany their music. True story. They would never have been offended by hearing that they lived in a "third world country" (one that discriminated against them). Maybe that's why I'm still perplexed that you haven't acknowledged that your reaction was over the top.
Serenity now.
The lyrics are by Bobby Lopez and Jeff Marx.
This is how Trump gets support as well. Everyone knows he's an ass, and he's proven it through deeds and words many times.
But ask a supporter and they'll say "He says what he thinks." People are genuinely sick of filtered, measured, "OMG don't take this the wrong way" sort of speech. We see that every day.
A little offense genuinely never hurt anyone.
I don't mind the sensitivity overload - as I've said before, youth tends to be intense in their beliefs, and that was just as true when we were the youth as it is today. And our elders rolled their eyes at us just as much as we do the millennials now.
What bothers me is when the sensitivity is limited to [insert trendy label here] groups and issues. Really, just treat ALL people better, and that means not being scathingly nasty to someone who inadvertently and with no offense intended said the wrong thing.
Because we all say the wrong thing sometimes. The more eager you are to take offense, the more frequently people will gladly give it to you.
Your use of this video is yet another example of puppet appropriation. I know you're trying to make a light-hearted point, but in doing so you've only shown your paternalistic and patronizing attitude.
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